Burnout, Baking, and Being a Business Owner with Jared Williams

Welcome to the Autistic Techie podcast.

I'm your host, Shea Belsky, an autistic software engineer and tech lead.

We're going to dive into the world of tech careers from a neurodivergent perspective, interviewing guests from all different corners of the industry and empowering you to be a

better self advocate.

Welcome back to the Autistic Techie podcast.

Today, I am joined by Jared Williams, a go-to-market strategy specialist, product expert, and now the co-founder of the Florecita Panadería Bakery in San Francisco.

Jared has storied experiences across product management, product analytics, and go-to-market throughout the tech and startup world.

Him and I even spent some time together working at Mentra.

Jared has spent the last year scaling one of San Francisco's

hottest new bakeries, which you should all check out if you live in the area.

I'm super eager for you all to hear about his journey with neurodiversity, stepping back from tech, and having an honest heart-to-heart about masking and burnout.

Jared, thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having me, Shea.

Always good to be chat.

Jared, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Yeah.

So I am the co-founder and general manager of Florecita Panadería a Mexican bakery here in San Francisco in the Mission District.

Also recovering tech professional who's recently left the industry after about five years working the go-to-market side in the startup and VC space.

So quite the different change, but glad to be wearing a different hat right now.

That's quite a big change and you and I spent a couple of months together working at Mentra and you were our product manager at the time.

What initially drew you into the product space, whether it was product manager, product analytics, what drew you to that space to begin with?

There's something about behavioral economics, why people make the purchases they do, why they choose to grab one brand off of the shelf or go with one product versus another that

was inherently interesting.

after starting in product analytics and realizing you can only have so much influence, that kind of gave me the curiosity to want to learn more about why those decisions are

made.

And PM kind of seemed like the best fit for that, to figure out why people make the decisions they do.

but just online.

It's easy to say, think I know why something is versus I want to tell people why they're doing something or help them do the thing they came to a product to do.

Do you think that your neurodiversity helped you gain better insights, gain a better understanding into people's behaviors and people's problems?

Absolutely.

And it's so funny you mentioned that in the later days of when I was in tech and even when I was at Mentra and working on pitch decks and sales material, I would ask ChatTPT, help

me rewrite the script, but assume I have ADHD.

Kind of knowing that the attention span was lower or knowing that the initial excitement had to be there.

it ended up coming up with some really punchy, scrappy material, some really punchy, scrappy copy that we would use for whether it was marketing, product pitches, et cetera,

but without kind of that base level understanding of, okay, if it works for me, then it's definitely gonna work for everyone.

I don't think I would have been able to come up with such effective content.

You said something really interesting there.

You said, assume I have ADHD.

Was that assume that you the author has ADHD or the audience to read her as ADHD or both?

The audience.

People, I think, generally have good attention spans, but in today's day and age, they seem to be getting shorter and shorter, whether it's due to TikTok or whether it's just

due to people being tired of a long-windedness, not really sure.

But assuming the audience has ADHD, because I know that if I can capture someone with ADHD's attention and hold it, it probably has some pretty good weight behind it that I'll

be able to hold the attention of someone who's neurotypical

And what was your journey like talking about your neurodiversity itself?

How long have you known that you have ADHD?

Did you have a diagnosis at all?

Are you self-diagnosed?

What does that look like for you?

I haven't known not long enough, I think is the answer I want to give up first.

So at about 24 and for context, I turned 28 this year is when I found out and I got formally diagnosed with ADHD and it was just the most eye-opening thing for me.

Provided a little bit of a sense of identification, feeling seen and sort of validated that, hey, you are why you are.

because of a reason and that's perfectly okay.

And what society might say about laziness or just kind of not getting it or non-intuitiveness doesn't really apply because the rules are different for me.

that's really insightful and I think it's super powerful as far as having this epiphany being like, congratulations, you have ADHD.

And that must've been a powerful feeling and it wasn't that long ago, was four or five years ago, but also given the pandemic in mind, world was a different place four to five

years ago too.

It was, it was very different.

think there was this burgeoning hustle culture that was kind of taking over and permeating throughout, especially young college kids or early grads or new grads.

And finding out that you're neurodiverse or rather not finding out that you're neurodiverse can really make you seem inadequate or feel like you fall short of what

societal norms or expectations might be.

or how the perceived difficulty of your journey to success is.

But understanding that you play by different rules can honestly be by a form of self therapy and kind of this journey of healing going from so much negative self talk and so

much self judgment to now learning how do I take this perceived negative and turn it into my biggest asset.

How did you then leverage your neurodiversity as an asset, as a strength, in a workplace or anywhere else in your life?

geez.

First things first is you gotta learn all about your type of neurodiversity and specifically as it pertains to you.

I know in the context of me with ADHD, I'm particularly inattentive.

Other folks might be hyperactive, some folks might be combined.

But understanding at a core level what makes you tick, I have an intraspace nervous system, so things that are novel to me, new and exciting.

I started figuring out, hey, I need to go where my interests are and I need to go where I'm being pulled rather than trying to push.

So what that meant for me was stepping away from areas that I might've succeeded in due to classical knowledge like analytics.

My degree in industrial engineering set me up well for it.

I knew statistics well, but I was just finding myself bored all the time.

Eventually going to PM and then eventually going to go to market.

mixed with a little bit of sales where I was becoming more and more in front of people.

My interactions and my day-to-days were looking more and more different from one day to the next.

And that's something that I found I enjoyed.

You would say then that you are a people person and your neurodiversity enabled you to be a confident and happy people person.

Is that a fair statement to make?

Correct.

And understanding that you're a people person and secondly, seeking out environments and roles that can foster and champion and celebrate people who are people people is at the

crux of how you take learning that you're neurodiverse and then activating it for good.

At the beginning of our call and when we first touched base a few weeks ago, you said, go where you are being pulled.

you talked about yourself as a tech dropout.

What inevitably led you to being pulled away from tech?

What prompted that realization?

It was masking was becoming too difficult.

The social norms needed to succeed in the confines of tech and specifically a role in tech where you're expected to check off certain expectations of an L1, L2, L3 and fit nicely

within this box.

Masking enough in order to meet those requirements just became too great of an ordeal.

And that's when I started seeking out other opportunities like the bakery, where I found that I didn't have to fit in that box and I didn't struggle with the masking that was

needed to stay competitive in tech, which is a hyper competitive industry.

Tech is absolutely competitive and I've also gone for that as well where you're chasing a title, you're chasing compensation.

feels, depending on the company, it feels like a rat race sometimes.

When you talk about masking and what it costs you, what did that masking look like for you in your different product roles and how was that incompatible with your neurodiversity?

Absolutely.

So there's multiple types of masking going on here.

I think there's the neurodiversity piece of masking and then also as a black man, sort of code switching.

And what that meant was whoever I am outside of work, dropping that persona and kind of taking on the alias of who I thought I needed to be to meet that next title, meet that

next compensation.

And so instead of being someone who was more excited about working with people, I had to be the industrious analyst, just focus on spreadsheets and numbers.

Or instead of being the person who's focused more on developing connections and nurturing and managing those relationships, I had to be the person who was focused on closing the

deal, closing the sale, regardless of if I knew it was good for an individual or not.

in their financial interests of their business or not.

And it eventually just conflicted, built up to a point to where it conflicted with who I felt my core identity was, ultimately ending up in an identity crisis, having no sense of

self-direction, and causing me to need to take a step back from tech and land in ultimately the one arc, the one area where I knew I could be myself and I was successful

because of it, not in spite of it.

What you said at the end there, be successful because of your neurodiversity and not in spite of it, which is huge.

Your neurodiversity should never be the reason why you are denied a chance to do something or denied the ability to be good at it.

And I want to double tap into one thing you said when it comes to having this massive identity crisis.

Did you have anybody on any of your jobs who you felt could advocate for you or support you in your neurodiversity?

Outside of Mentra unfortunately I did not.

However, there were some weird circumstances in that I had terrible luck in the industries and jobs that were chosen.

My first job I had gotten laid off from right at the start of COVID due to the EECOM industry going through a massive shift.

After that, joined an agriculture set company.

And then shortly after, before I could develop those relationships to have that champion.

Ukraine war kind of shifted things and then got laid off.

So it was this unfortunate revolving door of jobs where I was in and out so quickly that I never had that person to advocate for me.

Interestingly enough though, and I think I'll just be bluntly honest, I don't think it would have mattered.

I do not think it would have mattered because I hold the core belief that neurodiverse individuals for us, job and workplace satisfaction is infinitely more important and

crucial to us.

being able to stay in a role, being successful, much more so than neurotypicals, because we have to mask.

So you think it's the environment in which the person is in and less so the people who are in that environment with the neurodivergent person, in your opinion.

Or at least that's what would have worked for you.

making the assumption that there's a baseline general acceptance of we'll accept you how you are, absolutely.

But in the corporate environment, like in tech, there's this game that must be played.

don't speak out of line.

everyone don't speak up if someone who's more seniority than you is talking.

Yes, this may be a better idea, but we need to appease this other senior leader.

So we're going to go with that idea instead of yours.

I think.

there's layers to it, but yes, general level of acceptance, think it's that pending.

It's more so about the environment and how you can contribute on an IC level rather than the people around you, which I know is completely adverse to what neurotypicals say, which

is that you don't quit your job, you quit your boss, but it might not be the same for neurodiverse folks.

I agree with that to an extent.

think I've had times in my past where no matter how supportive a manager can be, I'm not cut out for the job or I'm grinding against the environment or the type of work that I'm

doing and my manager wants to help me or my team wants to help me, but they have no power to do anything or not enough power to make the change.

One time in my career, I was on a team that saw

Six different people leave the team or leave the company over the span of five months for various reasons of burnout.

And they were all in different functions of engineering, product analytics.

And their managers were not why they left.

They were just being, their nose was to the grinder on their work.

And many of those people were burning out.

Burnout is very real, whether you're neurotypical or not.

And to your point, I have had very supportive managers, completely irrespective of my neurodiversity, but even still, it was not the right environment to support someone who I

feel had different needs in order for the company to get the best version of me.

And so when you were experiencing burnout and when you decided as Jared, you have to take a step back from your tech world and focus on something else, how did you decide what was

next?

Did you know what was next already?

Did you have to figure that out?

I had a really serendipitous opportunity, which was my wife's bakery.

And it was kind of this aha moment where I was eventually putting off my day job and procrastinating work to focus on my wife's business.

And after getting laid off, I would say, I'll look for jobs next month.

The business just really needs me and I'll focus on this.

And then two months have passed and three months have passed.

And pretty soon it became six months where I've just been working on this business and putting off looking for another job, which was, if that wasn't signed enough, I ended up

getting an offer in VC and it was more or less a dreamish type role.

And once I had the offer in hand, I thought about everything I was giving up because I've just been living and enjoying and not having to think about everything revolving around

masking that I.

really struggled with when I was in corporate and I decided that going back into corporate would cause me more stress, more anxiety, and ultimately more harm than doing what I've

been doing.

And since then things have just taken off.

been a rocket ship.

I love that it's been taking off and I love that you are happier.

What about you working at your wife's bakery has enabled you to be more you, more authentic and more unmasking?

So part of at least my version of neurodiversity, what it means for me is knowing that I need to be constantly stimulated mentally and the ability to focus on different things at

different times, inherently scaling a business.

Having the background professionally gave me the tools that I needed.

But when you are working at a business and you are the entrepreneur,

every single week, every single day, every single month is gonna be different.

So there was no need for me to try and singularly focus on one thing for a long period of time because that wasn't gonna work.

Also working a physical job instead of a desk job, I had no clue.

It completely caused me to be far more engaged and care far more.

And even though the days ended up being longer here with the bakery than they were,

When I was working a desk job, I just feel so much more energized throughout the day.

So I think it was the change in the work environment, the changing responsibilities doing to growing a business, and also the lack of a corporate structure and needing to play the

corporate game.

Those are the three things.

Stop me if I'm wrong here, but it also helps that when you put your work down at the bakery, your work is done.

You don't have to worry about it as much as if you were in corporate where you have to worry about a long-term thing or a super long-term thing.

Is that a fair statement?

That's totally a fair statement.

The trajectory of my success was no longer in a boss's or manager's hand who I could, who I was worrying, have I curried enough good favor?

If, you know, the ax came to the grindstone, would I be on the chopping block?

All these things that are out of my control, I no longer worry about.

Now I worry about, is it going to rain this weekend?

Will we have a good turnout?

Things that I think are far easier to deal with and not be anxious about.

It's nice to have some things out of your control, even if they don't positively affect you.

But there is something to be said for doing what you can and leaving it up to your environment or your surroundings to take it from there.

You talked about occurring favor, you think of like political and social capital.

The good news about the bakery and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this is that all you need to do with a career favor people is like

give them something that they enjoy and want to come back to.

I've seen the Google reviews.

You've got five stars out of 50 or 60 reviews.

That's a lot of favor that you are carrying with people.

How did it get to that point?

So, having a business is kind of like having a meritocracy, where you're rewarded for the good work you put in, that's what you get out.

And not needing to curry favor means that people really accept you how you are.

And that's one of the really cool things that's similar to tech, which is it's a very accepting environment and you can come as you are.

We all can think of our local small business where you go in and there's a quirky person who always wears a hat.

or some individual who has a vest or some person who wears way too many pins on their shirt or there's just something about them that you can't really figure out what it is,

but you love them for it and they're uniquely them and they're not afraid to be them and that is part of what makes the business so awesome.

And having an environment where that X factor actually plays into my success, I think that is the secret key.

Whereas that X factor

doesn't really matter in corporate.

It's just fitting in the box.

How well do you fit in the box that you think you're supposed to fit in or you think that they want you to fit in?

When you're at this bakery, you define what that box is or there isn't even a box, it doesn't matter.

No one is telling you how you have to behave, how you have to act, how you have to mask.

You're there to do a job and you are there to put yummy things in people's bellies and down their throats.

And if they like it, they'll keep coming back.

And as long as you are not being mean and disrespectful to your customers, they'll keep coming back.

They will keep coming back.

And especially if you give them a reason to come back on top of yummy, delicious food, you make them feel valued.

You make them feel special.

You make them feel wanted.

And being neurodiverse and being in an environment where you do not feel valued, do not, you might not always feel special or feel identified or seen or interacted with in a way

that you would appreciate.

It gives you the ability to empathize and rewrite the script and saying, hey,

If I own my own business, here is what would be core value number one.

Here is how we do things differently.

And now that I'm in that position, that is at the forefront of how we do business.

The word that jumped to my mind as we're talking about this is vibrant.

Individuals who want to be themselves want to just do their thing.

They are vibrant.

They're unmasking.

They're not worrying about how people are perceiving them, how they're being judged or politicized.

They are there to do their thing.

And you and your wife, by and large, don't care too, too much about how they do it because you want the best version of themselves to do their jobs.

Is that a fair statement?

That's absolutely a fair statement.

And not only do you want the best version of themselves, but you lean into their neurodiversity because that's what makes them the best person for the job.

For example, when you have a business, really weird one-off things will pop up.

And my focus on hyper-fixating on things until they're done is actually really great for...

this stage of our business.

Now granted, we do hope to become much bigger one day and we have very big plans, but for now that's a positive and I'm successful because of that, not in spite.

In the future, you're looking to scale your business, hire more employees and bring on more staff, what are ways that you as a business owner would actually put it into

practice?

What does that mean to you as being the manager in that?

providing a emotionally safe and emotionally secure space for people to be vulnerable with us and talk about their dislikes.

A lot of businesses when they hire, they focus on what are you good at?

What do you like to do?

And it's this catch-22 where you end up having people who get good at the game of interviewing, which I think all of us have found ourselves in situation where you get

really good at interviewing and then you realize it might not be the right opportunity.

but focusing on what you don't like to do, where you're not excited to be, and being able to be honest about it because of a neurodiversity and not discriminating against those

folks.

Thankfully, we're in a state like California, which has also really great labor practice and protection laws for employees.

That's what's going to give them the ability to shine how they come.

I'm such a big fan of that and I'm super happy that that is the way you want to run your bakery as it hopefully scales and becomes even larger and bigger than it is today.

Looking back on your career, tech and non-tech, if you could have done anything differently, would you have done anything differently?

What would you have changed?

What would you have kept the same?

probably would have branched out and had more friends that are outwardly neurodiverse because maybe I would have found out that I was neurodiverse sooner and it would have made

a big difference so I can start working on that journey of self-development.

Also, and this goes out to anyone else who's struggling with this, dropping my own personal idea of success and substituting it with workplace happiness.

Because I think there's this inherent idea that maybe being successful and being happy are at odds and you can't have both.

When in reality, most of these people who are most successful, that is where they need to be.

That is where they are supposed to be.

And I don't think that that gets enough attention drawn to it.

So probably looking back, I would have totally, I might not even have worked in tech to be very frank.

I might've been a pilot, I might've worked in operations, I might've worked in facilities, which at its surface level, if you're being judgmental and if you're being superficial,

doesn't sound like the most glamorous or exciting titles.

But when someone is truly in their element and in their state of flow, their ability to succeed far supersedes anyone who is pushing or swimming upstream because they are just

rolling downstream.

It's night and day comparison.

That's huge.

Because you want the individual, you want you to be happy, to not feel like you're compromising on yourself or your values or your cognitive capacity, just to make somebody

else happy.

You want to be you.

You do, and it matters way more for neurodiverse individuals because we are not the same as neurotypicals.

So that element of workplace happiness is what's going to allow one to become successful and in whatever vision of a version of success that they probably are thinking of deep

down rather than, Hey, I'm an investment banker at Morgan Stanley and look at me.

I've made it.

But

I will be burnt out within three months and then I probably will not want to look for a job for another six months because the interactions have been so horrible and I'm just so

burnt out that I just can't do it.

And then that brings on a whole slew of issues.

It's not a place that you want to be.

So that short-term sacrifice for a sense of ego and I think letting go of the ego and allowing yourself to trust that you will end up where you need to end up as long as you

follow where you're being pulled.

instead of pushing against the stream.

It takes a lot of guts, it takes a lot of courage, and it's okay if it doesn't happen right away, but I personally have the belief that for neurodiverse folks, that is our key

to rocking it.

to rocking it.

am in complete agreement.

Jared, if people want to find you, if they want to know how to connect with you, if they want to visit your bakery, where can folks catch up with you next?

Absolutely.

So you can always connect with me on LinkedIn, Jared Williams, full name.

And if you want to swing by and see me in an apron with a smile, being quirky, probably singing along to Corridos Tumbados or some other type of Hispanic music and get some tasty

treats.

We are located in the Mission District in San Francisco, 2050 Bryant Street.

And we will see you Fridays through Sundays.

Come check us out.

Next time in an SF, I know exactly where I'm going.

Jared, it was awesome to catch up.

I can't wait to have some of your yummy treats in my stomach.

And this has been an awesome time.

Thank you for the awesome, incredible conversation.

Shea, this has been awesome.

Thanks for having me on and you're doing a really great thing here.

Glad I could be a part of it.