Capes, Kryptonite, and Neurodivergent Autonomy with Sheldon Gay

Welcome to the Autistic Techie podcast.

I'm your host, Shea Belsky, an autistic software engineer and tech lead.

We're going to dive into the world of tech careers from a neurodivergent perspective, interviewing guests from all different corners of the industry and empowering you to be a

better self advocate.

Welcome back to another episode of Autistic Techie.

On today's episode, I am joined by the incredible Sheldon Gay.

Sheldon Gay is the National Vice Chair of Umbrella US on an intersectional community led by neurodivergent self-advocates.

He's also a proud business owner, having founded Techano Solutions to build apps, websites, and other inclusive and accessible software solutions.

Sheldon is a proud advocate for neurodiversity and intersectionality and hosts his own podcast on the very same subject, I Must Be BUG'N.

Sheldon, welcome to Autistic Techie.

Thanks, Shea This is exciting.

I love having conversations with you and then certainly with this community.

So excited to chat.

Yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Tell us about where you came from, what your experience is like, and what neurodiversity means to you.

I mean, was born in Philly.

My mom moved us to the DC area when I was relatively young.

Went to some, some, you know, pretty exclusive schools, which was a part of my journey.

And I only say that because what makes that relevant is almost two years ago now, I had this revelation about my own neurodivergence and it didn't really

I mean, I was 41.

So I went 41 years of my life having no idea that this kind of label could be applied to me.

In particular, I realized that I was gifted and this, was a revelation.

But when I look back at the schools that I went to and even in particular, the experiences that I had as a black boy in those schools, that as I talked to other

black and otherwise melanated neurodivergent people are very, very resonant.

And so, yeah, I have lived many lives as I say, I've worked in multiple industries.

I'm currently a full-time entrepreneur.

Like you mentioned, thank you for mentioning Techano, where I'm helping people build apps.

I am also obviously doing the podcast, which has been...

A revelation unto itself, you know, I tell people I would thought that I might do that for a couple of episodes to just kind of talk about my like aha moment.

But then people kind of messaging me on the side telling me how much it meant to them, how much it meant to their family.

And I had even had family members who reached out to me that I didn't know were neurodivergent saying, like this is like they.

They didn't even know about the term neurodivergent, but they were like, that's me.

Right?

And so this meant that for me, this became very, very important work.

And so that's led me to continuing doing the podcast, you know, doing paid speaking work.

And then as you mentioned as well, becoming the national vice chair for Umbrella US.

And so, yeah, like I said, I'm very much so diving into

the advocacy work for the neurodivergent community and making sure that our experiences are humanized.

My shirt here, or sweatshirt, for those that know me, one of my key phrases is "labels don't have to feel like pathology." And so that's really at the core of my work is to make

sure that we can...

you know, use these labels, but not with this idea that anybody's broken or that anybody needs to absolutely be medicated or there's anything to fix, but just more so about

understanding our humanity.

And so that's, that's, you know, kind of my story.

Sheldon, you talked about leading multiple lives and having different lives.

Do you think that this life that you are leading now, when you are more aware of your neurodiversity, do you think that that life is more you, more honest, more real?

Or how does that feel?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, this is the most authentic Sheldon that I've ever felt, which is the beautiful thing.

I mean, it's a scary thing, but it's the beautiful thing about it.

I say it's scary because I think one of the things that we as a society don't do a great job of is preparing people for the true loving of their full self and the...

the space that you have to sit in when you have to, again, look at all the, you what I call the, your cape and your kryptonite, right?

And so it's scary to think, again, I'm going 40, well, I'm 43 now, but I went 41 years of my life with a particular identity and a particular understanding of myself.

And now I'm having to question everything, like, well, is this really me?

Did I really want that?

Right?

Like, so there's a scary piece in there about, who am I going to become?

right, because I've effectively like broken the glass on, you know, that previous identity.

But the beauty is that because I'm doing the work, because I'm really not shying away from what I'm finding, is that everywhere that I go,

I can feel much more confident that what I'm sharing, how I'm showing up, is exactly the way that I want to be.

And I don't have to then kind of come back home or go to whatever quiet place and rue the things that I've said and like double, you know, like think twice about how I was behaving

or any of that stuff.

you know, maybe somebody doesn't like it, maybe it was too intense for them, but...

I accept that part of myself.

understand that part of myself.

And so there's no, there's no desire to, to one, beat myself up for, for it, but also no desire to feel like even in the times when, you know, maybe I wish I would have done

something different.

There's no need to,

try to fix and like I said go back and change anything.

So yeah, I love this level of authenticity.

You can't kick yourself for all mistakes you've made in the past.

And I have definitely looked back on my own past and been like, wow, like, I'll have an intrusive thought where like 10 years ago I said or did something very immature.

And it was 10 years ago.

I didn't know better.

You didn't know better.

So you can only give yourself so much of a hard time because you didn't maybe know why this was happening.

You didn't know why this behavior felt natural and comfortable to you.

And now that you have the context of neurodiversity, that helps give you some better closure as, okay, this is why I'm doing this.

And is this something that I'm okay with or is this a behavior that I want to change?

Not necessarily correct, but something that I want to do differently.

Yeah.

You know, it's interesting.

I was just at Drexel, my alma mater, last night sitting on a panel and talking to some

diverse STEM folks there and this is a question that came up just so far as you know showing up in you know corporate spaces for example and wanting to remain authentic where

a lot of folks aren't necessarily going to look like you but how do I do that?

How do I you know

modify but then not completely extract who I am, right?

Like I tell people, know, again, I was born in Philly, culturally I'm Philly, I've spent so much of my life here, I was always here over the summers, yada, yada, yada.

But like, you know, when I think about the slang, the colloquialisms that I use, right?

They are very much so Philly.

And if I'm not with someone who would understand that, then I should not be surprised if I said, "Jawn".

And they were like what I don't even know what that word is right so I have to understand the context and say okay like Again, I don't have to shame myself or cut that part out of

me But I just need to know that understand the context and modify you know accordingly so yeah

You must have been pretty happy at the Super Bowl then.

Yeah, no, Super Bowl, was, yeah, I'm always rooting for Philly teams.

I did end up getting a chance to go down to the parade with some family members and friends and that was, yeah, that was fun.

My wife's grandparents live outside of Philly, and I had my first Philly cheesesteak, authentic Philly cheesesteak, a couple years ago, and it was an absolutely life-changing

experience.

Great great great great.

Yeah, no, got to the authentic one.

Don't get the you know I've lived in a couple of different places and they like claim to be able to make you know I'd say one of the biggest red flags is if they call it a steak

and cheese don't even bother like that's that's already a red flag don't Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah

patent

Speaking of life changing experiences, when you did become more aware of your identity as being neurodivergent, what was that epiphany like?

What was that moment like where you're like, my gosh, this all makes sense now, or did it not look like that?

What did that epiphany look like to you?

Yeah, I mean, it was a slow trickle of like, you know, my gosh, like, you know, happy moments, but it was, I mean, it was interesting because I began this self-discovery

journey, like really, really digging a deeper level below where I had already been going.

Like, let me kind of contextualize.

So how I even came to this realization,

was that I kind of got tired of feeling like I was in this loop in life.

Like I was really working hard.

I was, you know, taking on different jobs, but I wasn't kind of ascending to, you know, the heights that I wanted.

And I certainly wasn't as happy and satisfied in any aspect of my life as I wanted.

And it was weird because I would say to myself, well, again, like, you know, I'm going to therapy.

I'm doing, you know.

I'm you know someone who?

People generally like I can make friends and maintain relationships and so there wasn't like this thing that Automatically off the bat that I say well Sheldon you are whatever

and you know fix You know this like you're impatient, and this is just like okay work on being patient, and that's kind of the thing It's like no like you know nobody's perfect

right?

I'm not trying to say that but There was this this thing was like there's something there.

There's a it's like you know hearing a

a beep in the house and you don't know where it's coming from, right?

And so I was like, I need to figure out what the heck this beep is in my life.

And so as I did this work, I wasn't looking for neurodivergence.

was looking for, mean, I was really just asking, you know, open-ended, you know, questions out of curiosity.

And so as I began to read and, you know, things and listen to videos that, you know, again, weren't necessarily explicitly about neurodivergence, but referenced or alluded to

it, I was like, wait, this...

this is super resonant, this is not a label that I've applied to myself before, could this actually be me?

And so there are these times where you're saying to yourself, no, that can't be, right?

Because again, I'm 41, I've never thought about myself in this way, nobody's ever told me this about myself, how could this possibly be true?

So yeah, that was the journey, it's like, yeah, there were little pieces where it was the path of acceptance.

which then led to, you know, my podcast title is really about this duality of saying, you know, I must be bugging, right?

Which is this, again, there's this, nobody else is hearing this beep, right?

So like, maybe it's me, right?

But then.

not just in your head.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

And but the flip side of that is also, I'm sorry, this claiming of it, right?

Because I must be bugging the B-U-G-N is black, unidentified, underrepresented, gifted and otherwise neurodivergent.

And so it's also this affirmation of, you know, as much as initially I might have been doubting or whatever, like, no, I'm claiming it.

I must be, you know, bugging.

And so that definitely was a point.

that I reached that I'm grateful for because I do know that there are people who were diagnosed or identified at a very young age who are still wrestling with that.

And that, you know, can be taxing.

you had a really good point about there being like a beep or like, I almost want to say like a neurodiversity sized hole in your brain or like the shadow of, not necessarily the

shadow of neurodiversity, but like the effects that it has on people without knowing what to call it.

I'm curious, cause you spent a lot of time as a product manager, as a support specialist, and you spent a decent amount of time working in tech and working in that industry.

How do you think that your neurodiversity

helped or hindered your ability to be effective in those roles?

Yeah, great question.

So this is definitively where I would say the cape and the kryptonite come in, right?

Because for me, the depth and complexity, the speed at which my mind works, and obviously right there are some definite benefits.

You you're in tech and you you have to rapidly learn things.

You know, I was talking to the folks last night at Drexel.

So here in Philly, there is a building that

You know, I worked on even when I was in undergrad, right?

So Drexel has co-ops.

And so that means that for six months out of the year, I'll be working full time.

And so the long story short is that there was a time when I hadn't ever read engineering drawings.

You know, I was really like kind of thrown into the wilderness as it were.

But because of how my mind works, I picked up on things.

much quicker than they anticipated to the point where my manager at the time, he was working, he was basically managing two different sites.

He left me, you know, what, maybe 20 year old to manage that particular site.

And that's a major building here in Philly, right?

But that obviously, you know, that worked out for me because I could pick up on things, I could, you know, learn and process and, you know, all that great stuff.

Now, there were certainly times where

in tech that depth and complexity can get in the way.

mean, a simple example is, know, and this is something that, you know, a lot of us as engineers struggle with, right?

Like you can see kind of the optimal solution and sometimes the optimal solution, you know, from a business perspective is not actually the best one because maybe it takes too

many resources, maybe, you know, to actually get to

even like whatever the extra you're at 98 % efficiency now you want to get to 99 you know how to do it right but to do that it might cost you 10 times more than you would actually

be able to make back right but there's this itch because it's like but I want to do I want to make this better right and so there are often times where I was you know sharing those

solutions that people were kind of frustrated with

And there were also times when, again, the depth and complexity that I was sharing, I mean, it was kind of intimidating for people because they didn't understand what I was

trying to share.

And so it's interesting to recognize the space that you're taking up.

Like now that I can understand, like not everybody thinks in this way, right?

This is, again, the beauty of having this awareness is that I can say, hmm, it seems like maybe this person's not grasping it.

Let me be curious about that for them.

What's a way that I can help make that connection for them?

Instead of where in the past I might have been frustrated because they were...

you know, being defensive about the things that I was sharing, which then in turn made me defensive because I'm like, I'm just trying to help, right?

So now we're in like this, this weird spiral versus having this awareness about myself to say, hmm, okay, here's how I can adjust.

Again, as I said earlier, here's how I can kind of, know, I forget the word that I used earlier, but basically like, how can I adjust myself to make sure that in this space now,

I'm not running into their defensiveness because I'm offering them this safe space to know that it's okay that they don't understand the complex thing that I'm sharing and then I

can help both of us get on the same page so that we can move forward together.

I found that people are often intimidated at times if I express something differently or do something differently in a way that they were expecting a neurotypical person to do.

When I talk about my neurodiversity in the workplace, I say, I may express things differently or I may like emote differently the way that you're expecting.

That's less of a warning.

A warning almost implies that it's bad, but at least provides them context about how I communicate, how I express myself and the methods with which I do so.

Like, I don't know about you, but I definitely try to really protect my focus time, my no meeting time blocks on my calendar.

And I ask somebody, like, do you really need to schedule something at this time?

Not that I'll say no all the time.

I will, like, if it needs to happen.

But if this meeting can happen tomorrow or at an earlier point in time, I would prefer that to...

because that's how my brain works.

And everyone's brains are different.

Yep.

sometimes people in tech are expected to just fall in line and do what everybody else is doing.

And that doesn't always work for neurodivergent folks.

Yes.

No, that is an absolutely great point, both for tech and then just for life, right?

Like, again, having this understanding about, you know, the switching cost of, you know, I'm really focused on this project, maybe again, as a product manager, I'm...

going through the UI and making sure everything is exactly the way that it's supposed to be.

Like I need that time to really focus.

But if you're trying to schedule a meeting, if you're trying to come to my desk and ask me a question or whatever it is, it's going to be frustrating for me because I'm doing my

best to actually.

you know, do this thing that we're all collectively, you know, know, shooting for, which is to build the best product.

But if you're not understanding that it's not that I don't want to talk to you, it's not that I don't think that what you have to say is important.

It's just that the way that I work, I need that space.

And so, yeah, I love that you said, you know, it's not so much of a warning as if there's something wrong or ominous about it.

As much as it is, like the contextualization of it is like, okay, like.

now, you at least give the person the opportunity to choose to see that as, that's just, you know, that's just, it's not about me to not take a person.

Exactly.

Right.

They give them the opportunity to not take it personally.

Now, again, we know that some people end up doing that and that's separate, you know, but the more that you can be aware of yourself and provide that context for people.

the better, definitively the better that you'll be able to maneuver spaces.

Again, whether that's in tech where, like you said, there are a lot of people who expect things to just kinda like, there's this unspoken process in linear, linearity about things

that doesn't always vibe with how some of our minds work.

At previous organizations, definitely felt there to be unnecessary process, unnecessary rigidity, where you have meetings about meetings and it's like, I just want to do my job.

Can this meeting be an email?

Can I send a recording of this, like a loom and stuff like that?

Can we do this asynchronously?

There's so many opportunities for me, because like, either you want me to do my job and you want me to do this quickly, or you want to...

misuse my time and do something else, which I am happy to do.

But if you are misusing my time, then this is what you're losing.

Right.

That's beautifully said.

That's beautifully said.

In fact, I won't even add anything to that.

I think when we talk about tech as a whole, behemoth.

Did you know that you were neurodivergent when you were working as a product manager, or did that come after?

That came after.

I left corporate about maybe about four years ago now.

And so like I said, I only discovered this neurodivergence a little under, I I guess we're end of February now, so maybe about exactly two years ago, right?

And so, yeah, yes, thank you.

with cakes, being like, "congrats on the autism!" or "congrats on the ADHD!" I might do a virtual cupcake which said "Happy neurodiversity anniversary" and put that in the mail for

you!

I I did say what's funny last year.

I was like I need to start like properly I need to choose a date and like properly celebrate this because it is it's been that much of a a life changer.

I mean It really is a new life that I've been been given with this awareness

And again, so like even thinking about reflecting back on being a product manager and even why I ended up leaving corporate, it made so much sense.

And I'm glad that even before I 100 % knew why I was feeling the way that I was feeling, that I had the courage to just say, this isn't working for me.

I need to go kind of create my own way of doing things.

You know as my Muslim friends say, inshallah, which basically means Lord willing, that's the way that it'll work out.

It'll all work out.

Absolutely.

say this to people all time about neurodiversity, but just in general, if something isn't working out for you, you have a responsibility to yourself, almost above all else, to make

sure that you are being taken care of and that you're not in a situation that is causing you stress, causing you anxiety.

And if those things are happening, you have to move along and you have to do something to get out of there.

Like some companies, no matter how badly, I may want to work as a DJ,

I know I could never do that because to me the sound and the lights are overwhelming, and so is there a part of me that wants to be professional DJ?

Maybe, but would I ever do that practically?

Absolutely not.

No, again, and that's a beautiful thing is to understand that about yourself.

you know, maybe someday there is an opportunity to DJ that doesn't involve those things, right?

But like understanding that about yourself as well, I see a lot of us kind of getting very attached to the like these one ways that things have to turn out, right?

Like I want to be.

Let's just use DJ as an example.

I really want to be a DJ.

And they're hating every day of that journey.

mean, going back to my life, I left, I didn't pursue.

I did mechanical engineering as my undergrad.

I didn't pursue that long term because at a certain point I realized as much as I like problem solving, absolutely love problem solving, I love learning about how things work

and all that stuff, I did not want to be in lab.

I did not want to every day have to come in and plug away and hope that in five years my work pays off.

That just wasn't what I wanted to do.

Right.

Yeah, and even on working on site, like there were certain aspects of working on site, particularly the office part, that just didn't vibe.

And again, we can get creative about how we solution around that.

But at some point it might make sense to just say, you know what?

This, this and this way, I need to find a different way to be, because I need to look out for myself first.

and be able to let go of being a product manager or a project manager or whatever.

And how do you find that a transition into being a small business owner has helped?

Because at Tocano Solutions, you are the guy and you can define your environment, you can define your schedule, you can define everything.

What about owning that environment has helped you and helped your mental health?

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, with to Kano with, you know, I must be bugging having those having the freedom to choose my day to even be sitting here with you and make time to do

this conversation to have this conversation.

I'm sorry is I mean, it's just that's the gold because before it was very much so about, let me see what my manager says.

Let me see what someone else says.

And if somebody doesn't understand that, you know, I can

pull away in the middle of a day to go do something and still return to doing work.

Or if someone doesn't understand that, hey, you know, I wake up, you know, six o'clock in the morning and like to like knock out a few things.

And that's before anybody or most people are even, you know, let alone, you know, like really try to do any work.

And so.

That's the thing is that like it's given me that flexibility to choose my schedule.

It's given me that flexibility to also to choose the people that I work with.

It's something that I've become even more particular about because it is tough as a small business owner, as you're growing to turn away money, right?

Somebody comes to you and tells you they want to pay you to do something and you're looking at your bank account and you're saying, okay, it still doesn't say, you know,

millions and millions of dollars, you know, I could use that money.

I'm definitely at the point now where, again, in corporate, mean, whoever my clients were were my clients.

You my managers say, hey, look, you got to work with these three different clients.

And those are my clients.

was no, well, right, there was no choice.

But now I can say, you know what?

Look, like, here are my parameters.

Even when I go to speak, right, I can say.

Here's my contract and then my contract it says here's how I want the room set up Here's you know kind of like how I want to engage and if that doesn't work for you, then that's

fine And that for me works a lot a lot a lot a lot better because I

this space where you know you can show up and be 110%.

Exactly exactly it works out for me and it works out for those on the other side because you're getting the best Sheldon You're not getting you know, the Sheldon that is there

begrudgingly you're getting Sheldon that says okay this this works for me I'm excited.

I'm free to be you know 100 % me here and give you all that that Sheldon brings to the table

I think it's a really powerful thing when you are aware of your needs, you're aware of what sets you up for success and what holds you back and being able to articulate that to

people who may not have any awareness of what it means to be neurodivergent and who don't know what those struggles are.

And then when you come to do a speaking engagement or you work with a client and say, hey, here's the deal, here's my parameters and this is how it is going to work.

Have you found in your experience that people are receptive to that?

Have you found people pushing back?

What has the experience been like when you kind of set the terms of the relationship?

Yeah, I mean, I think that there are folks who definitely try to push back and definitely who don't get what's going on.

I I mean, even one of the things that I try to do when I'm speaking is I don't, I'm not, to be clear, I won't say never, but it would be, it would take a very special event for me

to be showing up to speak in like a suit and tie.

That's not my vibe.

That's not what I'm here to do.

I'm here to share a message.

I'm here to build community.

I'm here to connect.

I'm not here to look like, you know, the guy on the front of GQ or something like that.

And no shade to anyone for whom that is the way that you show up, but that's not the way that I show up.

And so there are people who kind of push back on...

you know, style of dress, right?

There's there are people who push back on, you know, some of the messaging, particularly in this political climate there.

And again, I'm not saying this without any understanding that some things can get dicey when your money is tied to federal programs and different things of that nature.

But like, I've definitely seen people who just aren't even aware that they're holding rigidly to standards that

aren't actually necessary, right?

But that's always the way that they've done it.

It's always the way that they've seen it.

That's always the way that they've been taught.

And then when I show up and I'm like, no, like there's a different way of doing this.

It can kind of ruffle some feathers.

But generally speaking, I have found a lot of people to appreciate the freeness that my showing up gives them, right?

There are a lot of people who are looking to...

Again, break free of some of these standards that don't really work for everybody or don't work anymore.

And having someone show up, you know, confidently and saying, like, no, like, again, you know, we're not doing the same old thing.

A lot of people have kind of latched onto that and really appreciated that energy.

I almost wonder how conversations would be different if neurodiversity was or was not in that picture.

I think when someone is just weird or acting different or has demands, it almost comes off as selfish.

But suddenly when neurodiversity is in the picture, then, my gosh, wow, now it's a different conversation and people could be perceived as being ableist if they don't create

those accommodations.

It definitely changes the game when you talk about it.

But ultimately neurodiversity shouldn't

need to be in that picture because people should be able to create the spaces that they need to thrive, whether it's neurodiversity, your disability or not.

Yeah, no, no, no.

Yeah, that's a super critical point.

And this is again, this is even applies back to this labels don't have to eat to feel like pathology, right?

Because again, even if I never use or identify with a label, can you honor my humanity?

And I think that's again, like a big part of the work that I'm doing is saying, is challenging people.

Excuse me.

You know, I've talked to certain folks and they want to know like, how do I deal with autistic people?

How do I deal with?

ADHD people, how do I like and for me, while I understand that question for me, that misses the point.

The point is how do you show up curious and openhearted enough that whomever shows up in front of you, you simply find the way to honor their needs and to, you know,

Again, treat them as an equal, regardless of whatever label they have.

And I think that's, again, where a lot of people kind of get sidetracked, is trying to, well, it's only okay if you're autistic, but why?

Why do I have to say that for you to just honor my humanity?

It's a really good point and something you said about dealing with autism really implies that it is something bad or difficult or challenging to reason with and that should never

feel that that is the communication that is being given.

You shouldn't have to deal with autistic people.

You need to treat them like equals and ensure that they, you, us, we have our needs met, whether they say they are autistic or they don't.

Sheldon, if people want to keep listening to you, if they want to find you on the web, find you everywhere, where can folks find you?

So you can find me on Instagram at I must be buggin.

Again, the buggin is B-U-G-N.

And then you generally speaking, the best, best way is just to go to my website where you can buy some of this fancy merch, some other, you know, merch that I've got at

sheldongayisbuggin.com.

I'll make sure I have all that information in the show notes where we listen to podcasts.

So make sure that all those links are there.

Sheldon, thank you so much for coming on again and thanks for listening to Autistic Techie.

Yes, thank you.