How Do I Know If A Company Is Neurodivergent Friendly?

Welcome to the Autistic Techie podcast.

I'm your host, Shea Belsky, an autistic software engineer and tech lead.

We're going to dive into the world of tech careers from a neurodivergent perspective, interviewing guests from all different corners of the industry and empowering you to be a

better self advocate.

Interviews are exhausting and time consuming for everybody and they're especially taxing for neurodivergent people like us.

What's the point of interviewing for a company if you don't know whether or not they can fully support you and get you what you need to kick butt at your job?

In today's episode, we're going to talk about how you can figure out if a company is neurodiversity friendly and is a good fit for you.

The last couple of weeks have seen a massive walk back by countless organizations on their DEI principles and ideas.

This isn't a good look for people who are neurodivergent, who want to work for companies that value them, that are going to create inclusive, accepting spaces.

And when you are interviewing at a company and they have suddenly decided that they don't care about people who are different, who require the equity and inclusion from others to

be successful,

That's not a great look.

But what if you don't know where a company stands?

They don't have public information about their disability advocacy, about accessibility, about ERGs.

The absence of that information does not strictly indicate that they aren't inclusive, that they aren't accessible, but it does warrant closer examination.

And there's a surprisingly large amount of things that you can do to find that information out before you actually get into the details.

For example,

Does the company have any social media and what are they posting about social media?

Do they celebrate Neurodiversity Celebration Week?

Do they celebrate Disability Pride Month?

National Disability Employment Awareness Month?

What are the things that they celebrate?

What are the things that they call out and say, this time of year, this holiday matters to us and this is why.

This represents the employees who we have at our company and we care enough about it to

highlight the experiences and perspectives of folks within our organization.

If you see that on their social media, that is a good indication that they do care about these things.

Even if they don't necessarily have a dedicated website for them, the presence on social media might indicate to you that that information is worth looking into.

That says, yes, we do care about these people.

It just takes a different form than maybe you're expecting.

Perhaps they have an accessibility statement.

lots of organizations these days are required by law to have accessibility statements on their websites.

What companies go above and beyond to make sure that their websites, their applications, their products are accessible to people with disabilities, whether those are visible

disabilities that directly implicate how somebody can interact with the web if somebody is blind or deaf, for example.

What happens if somebody has an invisible disability and benefits from digital accessibility from the way that they read a website or perceive the content or the

information hierarchy or the colors on it.

The forward thinking of an organization, of a product, and how they think about accessibility does reflect their internal commitment to their employees, to the company

itself.

If they have a great accessibility policy for their product, for their customers, it is generally, a reflection of the values they hold internally for people who work there.

Let's say you get to the careers page now and you're looking at all the jobs that they have on their website and they may have an inclusion statement.

They may have a specific section about accommodations, about disability that might go above and beyond what you would normally see on a job.

What are they saying in there?

What information are they putting out there to employees, to job applicants?

What are they saying to applicants and job seekers who have disabilities who may need additional support or help or attention from the company as part of the application

process?

Is there a dedicated email inbox to ask questions and get support before applying to a job?

Are there ways to learn more about what the interview process is going to entail before even spending a moment on an application?

There's lots of creative ways to look on the web and find information about employees who work there at a company before you even apply.

If you're on LinkedIn, some of these employees may be out and proud about their neurodiversity and indicate that they work at an organization.

You are more than welcome to reach out to these people in general and ask them, hey, I'm thinking about applying to your company.

I see that in your LinkedIn title, it says you're ADHD.

or you have epilepsy, can you talk to me about how you enjoy time at your company?

Are they good to you with your neurodiversity?

The answer may be yes.

The answer may not be yes.

The answer could be completely unexpected for everybody involved, but you won't know the direct answer to that question unless you ask.

And this individual typically would not have any connection to recruiting.

It's unlikely that they would have any bearing on your ability to...

get that job or not.

Maybe they could even refer you if it was a really good fit.

It is an honest, candid perspective.

I use the word candid because it is raw.

It is honest.

It might not necessarily be...

a script or a speech they are reading off of that someone has given to them to say on this topic, you're hearing the words come out of their mouth as they're being formed, as they

are being honestly thought and not necessarily crafted or formed in advance.

but Hearing a first-person perspective from somebody who has the lived experience is often extremely beneficial to folks like us who need that sort of empathy.

need that sort of help and attention from somebody who has been there, done that.

Now let's say you've applied to a couple of different jobs and you have interviews scheduled with one of them.

Congratulations, first of all.

That's a big accomplishment.

But here's where the hard part begins.

You're going to be a part of the interview process and swept into a whole variety of different meetings, different events, and who knows what else.

There's so many different forms this can take.

One thing that you can do to help yourself be successful in these interviews is to pay attention to what they are sending you.

Do their interview questionnaires, their forms, have any information about accommodations, accessibility, adjustments to the process?

Are they forward about asking for this information or are they relying on you to come to them and tell the interviewer, the HR recruiter, what you need?

There's a big difference here.

When a company starts an interview process with you and says,

We can provide accommodations, end of sentence, that leaves it a little bit vague.

You don't necessarily know what you can ask for.

What options do you have?

What is possible?

You can ask for the world and get a very small portion of that.

You may ask for a very slight adjustment, but in reality, you could have benefited from something much greater, much more significant that would have benefited you during the

interview process.

And you may never have known that because it is unclear what the boundaries of the interview accommodations are.

You just might not know what is it isn't possible.

But when an interviewer, when a recruiter says out loud or in front of you, if you require adjustments to the interview process, this is an example of what we can provide.

But if you get into the details of things of a recruiter, they may say to you, we can provide adjustments and accommodations to this interview process.

And here is a list of things that we are able to do.

And here is what we aren't able to do.

When they come to you and make it very clear, here is what is possible for this interview.

And here's what we can do to accommodate your needs.

That is huge.

It shows a couple of things right off the bat.

Number one, they've done this before.

You are not the first person for whom they are providing these adjustments to, which means that this is a path that others before you have walked on and they have tried this path

out and they have gone through this interview process and it has hopefully benefited them for them, for the company to keep providing these accommodations and adjustments to you as

a job seeker.

When these adjustments are listed for you in an easy to understand format, it helps you understand what you can actually accomplish during this interview.

Are you able to keep your camera off?

Are you able to have an interview go for a little bit longer than maybe it's normally scheduled for?

If there are any in-person components to an interview, how flexible are they with the space or the lighting or the sound in which this interview is being held?

The more specific they are about the accommodations that they can provide, better it helps you, the job seeker, focus more on the interview itself and less about the adjustments

that have to happen in the background.

Asking for accommodations in an interview does not have to make you feel guilty or ashamed for asking them.

And when they are forward and honest about saying, here's what we can do, it removes a lot of the emotional weight from you to ask for them because they are opening that

accommodations door, stretching a hand out through and saying, we can do these things for you.

All you have to do is ask for explicitly what you need.

It makes it so much easier.

It really does.

It really simplifies a lot of the thinking because you can just say, I need to have my interview with my camera off or need to have the questions for this interview sent to me

in advance the way I have time to review them.

Whatever adjustments they can provide, the knowledge of what those possible accommodations are drastically improves your cognitive health.

It helps you think less about the specifics of

that environment and more about actually succeeding in the interview itself.

And when these accommodations are in place, a huge aspect to this as well is working with interviewers who are trained on neurodiversity, who know what it's like to work with job

seekers who might be autistic, who might struggle with communication.

And when you do get into the interview itself, it is a great thing to see interviewers who are trained on neurodiversity, who know what it means to have and to lead a

neuro-inclusive interview.

These interviewers might know what to do to support you if you are autistic, if you're ADHD, if you're dyslexic, and they can really support you in whatever way that you need,

whether you have an accommodation or whether you don't.

They might expect a lot more.

They might be more aware of possible things that could happen and are far less likely to hold those things against you as might be stereotypical.

They might be more aware of the challenges you're facing going into the interview.

They might be more aware of the stress or the anxiety that you have and can help calm you down and can help you feel more centered and more focused by making sure that you're on

the same page with things.

And they can repeat themselves if something needs clarification.

They can make sure that captions work going into an interview.

They can keep their camera off too if your camera is off.

There's a lot of things that an interviewer who is trained in neurodiversity can do, knows how to do, and will do to create as level a playing field for you as for other applicants.

And when you think about having an accommodation it's not a cheat code for you.

It does not necessarily give you an explicit advantage over other people.

It levels the playing field.

so that you can do your best job in this interview process and focus on the task at hand.

If I'm a software engineer and I am doing a coding challenge for the interview, I want to focus as much of my attention on the task at hand.

Maybe it is a hacker rank or Leet code style thing.

I don't love those kinds of interviews, but that's what we have to work with as software engineers.

If I had an adjustment in those kinds of interviews where it was me, hacker rank, and another person on the call, maybe we both have our cameras off.

The point of those interviews is not to see who can make eye contact with the other person.

It's the code.

It is the problem solve, explain your thoughts.

and actually deal with the task at hand.

And maybe if you have a hacker rank, maybe an accommodation could be, you have the question that you are being asked in advance.

And that does not necessarily mean that you get to solve the problem an hour in advance, but you get to bring a list of questions with you and help you better understand what is

the task.

And when you know what the question that's being asked of you in advance is, you can come better prepared to an interview with questions and clarify what's going on and be able to

hop into the code a lot sooner rather than there possibly being a knowledge gap or a communication barrier because you have already addressed the communication barrier.

And an interviewer who is aware of and inclusive of neurodivergent people like us is going to know that those possibilities might come to be and they will support you.

as best they can.

Not every company is going to be able to do everything.

Those that are inclusive, those that are equitable are going to do what they can to make those interviews as level of playing field as possible for you and for everyone.

Let's say you get to an on-site interview.

Those interviews can be really crazy.

You're in a hotel, you're in their office, you're in conference rooms, you're going all around the space and you are overwhelmed at a brand new place and my gosh, what is even

happening?

I am going crazy.

You can see how that feels.

And I have felt that too on on-site interviews where I am overwhelmed and I am sure that you have felt overwhelmed in those situations too.

or you might face that feeling of complete anxiety and overwhelm.

And that is a normal thing to feel.

If a company is inclusive and cares about you, the applicant, they'll make that information as easy for you to digest as possible so you know where you have to be, when

you have to be there, who you're going to talk with, and what the subject of those interviews are.

At an onsite interview that I did a while ago, I had a very explicit set of instructions that I asked for to give me a better understanding of where am I supposed to go?

Can I have a map of where these places are?

Who am I talking with so I know who to look out for, who I can find them on LinkedIn and find their faces?

And what is the subject of these interviews?

That way I have time to prepare and be present for the subject at hand.

And the company was really great at giving me all the things that I asked for and more.

Note that I did have to ask for some of those things.

I wasn't given a map of the office.

I had to ask for that.

And as soon as I did get that map, that drastically reduced my anxiety knowing where I had to go.

Corporate offices are really confusing and hard to figure out.

Those layouts can be really crazy.

I totally get it.

And just having a visual of a map so I could say, I'm starting off in this conference room and then at lunch, I'm going to this space.

And then at end of the day, I'm going back to this space.

Speaking of lunch, in-person interviews can be really loud.

They can be really bright.

They can be smelly.

There can be a lot of things happening.

And I have been in interviews in the past where we've had like a lunch social chat.

And I want to have a conversation with the interviewer.

And I know that it is still technically an interview and I am still technically being evaluated, but I can't hear the other person.

It's loud.

There's a lot of things happening around me and I can't be present and have this conversation with somebody if I literally can't hear them.

And that's happened to me in the past.

It got to the point where I was in the middle of this in-person conversation.

We were in a busy cafeteria and I said to this person very honestly, hey, I want to this conversation, but I cannot hear you.

Can we go to a quieter space, like a social common area somewhere outside of this cafe so we can have a conversation?

And they said, sure.

course, no issues at all.

And we did.

And we had a wonderful conversation and it was incredible.

That employer didn't necessarily offer that to me upfront.

And I gave them that feedback that it should be an option.

But I was really, really impressed that that an interviewer at the time was super flexible.

They may not have been prepared to have that adjustment, but the fact that they were willing to improvise on the fly and say, yeah, sure, let's do that.

That was huge to me.

That meant a lot to me that they were willing to be flexible and adjust on the fly.

That interviewer at that time, may not have had any knowledge of neurodiversity.

I didn't say I was autistic.

I just said, hey, I can't hear you.

Can we go somewhere else that's quieter?

And neurodiversity was not part of the conversation at all.

Just the fact that they were willing to be flexible, really meant a lot to me.

And that is a huge signal boost for those organizations that are neurodivergent friendly, whether neurodiversity is part of those conversations or not.

Now let's say you're at the end of the road and you've got an offer letter in your hand.

congratulations once again.

Super huge accomplishment.

Who knows how many applications it's been.

The story is not quite over yet.

Now you have unique opportunities to ask to speak to other people directly within those organizations and ask, do you have disability ERG directly to the recruiter?

Does somebody with your disability in the company...

What do you want to talk to me about their experiences?

Can I speak to my manager about this and how aware they are of my neurodiversity if you want them to know about it from day one?

You are within your rights to discuss them with your manager if you're neurodivergent or not.

I have a whole other episode talking about should you tell your boss if you're neurodivergent.

If you choose to talk about it during the interview.

It may be helpful for them to know about that going into it and what they can do to support you from day one.

And maybe that's what you want.

Maybe you don't want them to know about it from day one.

Maybe want them to know a little bit further in and that's totally okay.

Whatever makes you feel the most comfortable and helps equip you for the most success before you even sign the offer letter.

You could do the same thing that I mentioned before in LinkedIn.

Go find somebody who works at this organization and say, hey, I got an offer to work for your company.

I would love to know what your experiences are.

Can we hop on a call to talk about it?

They may say yes.

And they may tell you information that you had no idea of before you ever spoke with them.

Your recruiter

might also be able to connect you with somebody in the organization who is neurodivergent directly.

Maybe they have a neurodiversity ERG.

Maybe they have a Slack channel.

Maybe there's a group inside.

Your recruiter might also know people in the company who are open and honest about their neurodiversity or disability and are representatives internally who would be willing to

talk to you, who may not be connected to HR or talent or anything like that.

Those companies existing would give you a huge boost, a huge signal that they do care about these individuals, even if it's at the end of interview process.

The earlier you research this information, the more positive of the time you're going to have as part of the application process.

You want to know as much as possible going into those interviews.

That way you know the right questions to ask, the right people you have to talk to, and what actually needs to occur for you to be successful.

This is separate from necessarily knowing what kinds of accommodations you need, which we could talk about in a different episode.

The moral of this story is that the further in advance you research a company's neurodiversity practices and principles, the more confident you will be about whether or

not they will actually be able to support you.

If you can see that a company has ableist policies or is acting against the best interests of the mystery neurodivergent, that is a strong signal that you should walk away from that

company and not work for them.

Do you want to work for a company who doesn't care about neurodiversity?

The further in advance you can confidently answer that question, the better off you are going to be as an applicant and as an employee of that company.

Get out there and ask those recruiters about neurodiversity.

Are there ERGs?

What kinds of accommodations can I have?

How much can we adjust this interview process for your benefit?

And remember, these interviews are about you.

You need a job from this company.

And if you really want to work for them badly, you want to make sure that that company can support you in your capacity to do a job, to do whatever you got to do.

And if they can't do that...

You have to be a little bit selfish and walk away if it's not going to be a good fit for you.

And if you can't force yourself to be at a company that doesn't support you, that doesn't create equitable opportunities for you, and doesn't know how to help you.

But when you do find an organization who hits a home run, who is really able to enable you, who can help you thrive, who can do whatever it takes to support you, that's when you

know you've made a great match and you're going to be a really happy employee.