Sense-Ational You: Sensory Friendly Clothing and Adaptive Fashion with Julia DeNey

Welcome to the Autistic Techie podcast.

I'm your host, Shea Belsky, an autistic software engineer and tech lead.

We're going to dive into the world of tech careers from a neurodivergent perspective, interviewing guests from all different corners of the industry and empowering you to be a

better self advocate.

Welcome back to the Autistic Techie podcast.

Today I have the honor of being joined by Julia DeNey.

She is the founder and CEO of Sense-Ational You, whose mission is to help all children feel safe, heard, and included everywhere they go through clothing that helps them

regulate.

Sense-Ational You enables autistic youth to always have the tools and comfort they need, combining evidence-based research with the latest trends in adaptive fashion.

Julia is a graduate of Cornell University.

where she graduated with a degree in fiber science and apparel design, having done independent research in adaptive children's wear.

Julia, thanks for coming on the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

of course, and also good to see another Cornell graduate talking about the swag before and replacing all the things that come from Cornell.

They have a store full of swag and shirts and sweaters and everything over there.

Yes, I love it.

I know I love that you're representing.

I should have worn mine.

It was the first I picked out of my dresser today.

I wish I could say that I planned it this far in advance, but realistically, it was just the first thing at the top of my pile of shirts.

I pile as a glorified way of saying nice folded shirts.

prompt my wife would be mad at me if I referred to my shirts as a pile, I think.

Tell us a little bit about yourself and about how you embarked on this mission.

Yeah, it was definitely kind of a crazy culmination of things coming together.

But I was majoring in fashion design at Cornell and very separately with my sorority, started volunteering at a local autism preschool in Ithaca.

And they brought up a lot of clothing challenges to me and sensory needs just in kind of that small talk as a college student of what's your major.

And because I was interested in children's clothing, it just kept coming up and it was never something that I had heard of.

So as you mentioned, I kind of began this independent study.

But really starting a business didn't come to mind until I graduated, which was in 2020 in the thick of COVID chaos.

We didn't even know what was happening.

So I went to work in special education actually with autistic students, because the fashion industry was very shut down and I wasn't sure where everything was gonna land, but

I knew they needed special education teachers.

So I went there and really saw really how widespread sensory needs were and how little a lot of teachers understood it.

They came from the background of education.

and behavior, whereas I was entering in from kind of this fashion sensory perspective and could see kind of that huge impact on learning.

So I started down this wild journey of trying to figure out how to start a business and help students across the country.

It's wild to me that much of the professional education that special education professionals are receiving doesn't always include fashion or adaptive wear or things like

that.

Why do you think that there is a gap in the clinical education and then what autistic people are literally wearing, what they're carrying with them?

I'm curious if you have any insight into where that discrepancy comes from.

Yeah, I think it's so hard because I think so much of the background, really this can apply to so many professions, but you're trying to cram so much into a small period of

time to get a degree and so much of that learning comes from hands on and from the people you're learning from around you.

And the concept of sensory and regulation and its impact on behavior and how clothing can play a role, like these are all very new conversations.

So for teachers who have been in the field for a lot of decades or learned from people before them, that

wasn't as much of a conversation.

So sometimes it's hinted at, it's like, it could be a sensory thing or they're clearly dysregulated.

There's a beginning of a knowledge in the newer teachers and just like teachers who are getting that like newer education.

But I think it's hard.

think it's all still new and it doesn't have a lot of data behind it.

I think it's really easy for the professions and school districts who need to kind of see that data and see where the techniques are coming from to kind of look towards a lot of

these behavioral efforts and tools.

that do have been studied and do have a lot of data behind them.

I think it's interesting as far as it might be this, it might be that.

And then you talk about having data and having information to back this up and say, this is actually what's happening and we have a clear reasoning for why and where this is

coming from.

How much of what you do of Sense-Ational You is backed by that data and backed by research versus qualitative things?

Yeah, I definitely say it's become a lot more qualitative.

It's become a lot more just talking to the consumers, talking to autistic adults, talking to parents, listening to them online, reading stuff that they're putting out about

personal experiences, because I don't think it's been studied as much as it needs to be.

Definitely try to stay on top of the research and read the papers that do come out.

And occupational therapists will write about sensory needs a lot, and that's where a lot of that data can come from, which is super helpful.

But I think for something as personal as clothing and a sensory experience, it's been a lot more effective to just have that be stories of people who are actually experiencing it

and hear that from them.

And where do you go to look for those stories?

Do you talk to people locally?

Do you solicit those from parents?

How do you actually find people to talk to?

Yeah, it's honestly become so heavily on social media, which has been great.

Social media has been an amazing place for me to connect with not just consumers, but then also have these conversations.

And in the beginning of starting it out, I knew I just wanted to talk to as many people as possible.

So I just message anyone who had a following, ask if they could put it up on their story, if anyone was willing to chat or fill out a quick survey and just dug through everything

people had to say, whether that was on video calls or just like bopped into a survey that I could have and hold on to.

So that was really helpful.

then teaching was honestly such a great resource of having new students every year, having those parents every year.

So that was amazing to get some of those in-person experiences and questions asked.

can only imagine during the pandemic, you must have had a lot more people pop up who wanted to talk to you or you wanted to talk with.

Yeah, definitely.

think everyone was then online seeking community, had some more free time and was just kind of looking for ways to kind of spend your days in quarantine.

So it was definitely a lot easier to kind of track people down and get them on calls in the way beginning of starting Sense-Ational U, which lined up perfectly for me, but I

think is definitely harder now that people are kind of back into the swing of life.

What have you done to respond to a, I don't want to call it post-pandemic world because COVID is still out there.

What have you done to stay ahead of things knowing that COVID is less of a prescient threat than it is today?

Yeah, I think it's just focusing, it's really honestly more from a marketing side of just focusing less on kind of the at home and creating sensory spaces in home where everyone

was stuck inside doing their best to keep their kids regulated.

And now kind of focusing on explaining how our clothing and these tools and sensory regulation can impact learning or your experiences out being able to go to a restaurant or

a sports game or be out in the community.

And I think that

is totally different post COVID where then kids became very used to being able to be inside and in their safe spaces.

So really figuring out how you can stay regulated, but go and start exploring the world and exploring these places again.

What I'm hearing is you want to bring the safe space with you or bring a piece of the safe space with you.

I wish that I'd had that growing up.

What is that experience like for kids who can now have like a little bit of their safe space with them wherever they go?

What is that like for them?

Yeah, it's been really cool to hear the customer stories on that part of whether the family is able to go to the restaurant together or what mom reached out that her child was

able to eat in the cafeteria with all his friends for the first time with our hoodie, which was so amazing.

And I think it's really being able to be a part of the community and really be able to connect with friends and peers and let friends and peers see people who are different than

themselves be there also.

So I think it's so mutually beneficial, but the customer stories on that.

has been so motivational and honestly everything I hoped that our clothing would be and be that kind of traveling safe space as you said.

It's incredible.

What stories have stood out to you that are both surprising or unexpected in how people are receiving, responding to what you're doing?

What's stood out to you the most?

Yeah, I think what stood out to me the most was people who just were kind of at a loss and really just looking for any sort of answers or anything to even try.

I think because I was so deep in the research of everything of other sensory tools and other things that could help and other techniques and trying to create something new in

that space, I was aware of all those other options and all those other techniques and tools.

And what I realized is so many people just...

aren't given that information, even their teachers aren't passing it along, or sometimes therapists aren't, or it's hard to find qualified therapists in areas.

So I was really crazy kind of seeing how much like people just needed resources and knowledge and a safe space of someone to talk to.

And we're really willing to try anything to help and wanted to be those parents that provided the tools and help their child, but really were lacking that knowledge.

And I just realized that that's a space like.

Sense-Ational you as a brand whether it's our products that can solve that or just be able to provide other resources I wanted to be a hub people could go to if in their local

communities.

They don't have that

Have you found ways to promote those communities, either through Sense-Ational You or through other things?

You mentioned the idea of community.

What are you doing in that regard to promote that interconnectedness?

Or what do you want to do with it?

Yeah, definitely would love to be able to start our own communities and like little local hubs or Facebook groups.

But right now just really post like promoting other ones that we hear about.

I try to connect with a lot of therapy centers and community groups that are already doing amazing work and they'll become affiliates of ours.

And then likewise, I'll be able to send customers there and otherwise just trying to be that hub of resources that you would go to those community groups for kind of in the

interim.

having a blog that provides a lot of resources and

about a variety of topics, whether be sensory with food or summertime or trying to keep winter coats on, like whatever it is, just trying to find a place where they could find

some answers, even if they aren't able to find like a local community hub right now.

I also get the impression that for some parents, for some caregivers, interacting with Sense-Ational you might be the first time that they are engaging with a sensory-friendly

or autism-specific resource.

Is that fair or is it actually not the case?

Yeah, it definitely seems that way.

I've definitely had people reach out and just say, feel like my child has some sensory needs, but I don't know what that means.

I don't know if I'm right.

And just trying to work through that with them, point them to some resources.

Or they'll come to us with challenges that I don't currently have clothing that solves, but being able to send them other people that are already doing it or come up with some

DIY solutions that they could try out.

So it definitely seems like a lot of times.

I'll be the first touch point for someone in kind of understanding sensory, understanding their child from a new perspective.

I also get the impression that a lot of parents who you work with seem, I don't know what the right word is here myself, but I think they are desperate or exhausted, not

necessarily by their children, but by the process of trying things that aren't working.

How do you think about managing their expectations?

I have found in my experience that a lot of parents sometimes look for the golden ticket, the one size fits all solution, and I don't think such a thing is out there.

But how do you manage those expectations but still provide value in a way that matters?

Or how do you communicate to those people?

Yeah, I think we've said is spot on that I try to articulate to that there's no one magic solution or one thing that will work perfectly, but try to give a list of options.

So I never usually respond to a question or something to read or something to try with kind of this one option, like, oh, all you need is a visual schedule and all your problems

will be solved.

It's like, hey, maybe try a visual schedule, try a social story, try these sensory activities before getting dressed or.

whatever the challenge may be, giving a bunch of options of things to try and then let them know that they can ask their special education team or their occupational therapist

for other personalized ideas from people who know their child.

And I think also when it comes to our sensory clothing where I say, hey, this could be a good solution for them, I always let them know that it is personal and everyone's sensory

needs are different.

And so that there's always a return window.

like, hey, you can try it out and then send it back if it doesn't work.

I'm not gonna be offended.

gonna be for everyone, because as you said, there's no magic solution and everyone's so different.

I'm also really curious, you're talking about one sensor that's all and everyone is different.

My sensory needs are different from the sensory needs of other people who are autistic, from other kids, from other adults.

How do you design clothing for as wide a breadth of the sensory needs that autistic people have, while still making it personal, while still having it resonate?

Because I can imagine that people are expecting you to cover every single possible combination of sensory needs, which is not possible.

How do you try to cover the most ground but still meaningfully address their needs?

Yeah, it was something I really struggled with in the beginning of where do you start?

What are the first clothes you produce and put out there knowing that you can't just suddenly make something that meets every single sensory need or address every single even

sensory system.

So really coming back to that, talking to the consumers during that COVID time and sending out a survey that hundreds of people filled out, trying to find kind of those common

threads.

What were the most common sensory things?

So for example, the tags, like that was...

pretty universally hated, so we're just gonna get rid of all tags.

And then from there, just really trying to figure out the biggest group, so like our sound-reducing hoodie, we heard like noise was a huge problem for a lot of people, but

headphones didn't work for a lot of people.

So that was a big enough group that I saw a lot of consistencies in those answers that I knew that was one that would be fairly universally enjoyed or needed, and likewise with

our compression t-shirt.

So.

really tried to do the biggest categories, but it's definitely hard.

definitely still get messages about other sensory needs we're not addressing or how this doesn't work for their sensory needs and they want this type of fabric instead.

And it's my dream that you could just have this huge website and we have hundreds of different options and everything you pick your favorite fabric in.

And that's the goal of getting it there.

But definitely as a small business, it's honestly very challenging to meet everyone's needs all at once when you're first starting.

that feels like Azazi.

My wife uses Azazi for her wedding dresses and for her bridesmaids dresses.

And it was cool how you can customize, here's the color, here's the style, here's the fit.

And they even had maternity dresses.

That was truly a one size fits all thing.

And I think people understand that you are a one woman or two person show basically.

And trying to accomplish everything is probably unrealistic in that regard.

Yeah, no, I love those websites.

We use it for my sister's wedding too.

And that would definitely be the dream would be similar to that.

Like you just filter by sensory need, you filter by your favorite color, your favorite fabric, and you have all your options.

And I'd love to be able to grow to be that size to be able to do that.

But definitely not there right this second.

That's the hope.

And I will also freely admit to those sensory needs as far as agreeing that noise and tags are the biggest thing.

I will openly confess that I have ruined too many shirts by trying to yank out the tags.

Oops, there goes the fabric.

And I have probably hidden a couple of those damaged shirts on my parents and not told them what actually happened.

And now whenever that happens, I have to restrain myself and I just have to...

get a pair of scissors and cut it out that way, even there it's just like a little bit scraping at your neck and then it irritates it and it makes it itch.

my gosh, I so appreciate the no tags thing and I will, I know for a fact that I will shop more at places that don't have tags or make the tags easier to remove, like Lululemon.

that are meant to be torn off, yeah.

Lululemon, I don't mean to plug them, but they make their tags really easy to rip out and I don't know why that comes to my mind, but whenever I get some from Lululemon, they're

like, yeah, just yank the tag and it's gone.

And I'm like, wow, that was easy.

And their quality is also really good.

And I happen to like Lululemon stuff too.

Yeah, it's great.

Honestly, the whole kind of uprise of athleisure and better like athletic wear, I feel like has been really great kind of for the sensory space because people also don't want

tags rubbing against them while they're working out, which people don't think of as like a sensory thing, but it is.

So a lot of athletic wear is no tag or it's easy to remove the tags, which is amazing.

I'm wondering how much of your work and how much of the research that you do is inspired by other athleisure companies or other major fashion brands?

How much do you combine research and data from the neurodiversity space into actual fashion trends, whether it's fashion research or modern day fashion trends that are

happening right now?

What does that combination look like?

Yeah, think that kind of fashion sense, I would talk about athleisure brands doing no tags is super helpful, especially for communicating to factories of kind of what you want,

being able to point to those as an example, say, you know how athletic wear has no tags, we're gonna do that for all our clothes.

And they're able to have that real world connection, you're able to provide kind of those screenshots and those real pictures of what you want it to look like, which is amazing.

So from that research side, that's been also super helpful for me as a small business owner, communicating all these changes.

And I think from a trending standpoint, right now our offerings are fairly basic in terms of like everyone can kind of wear on the withstand time and not just trends so that you

kind of have these basics that you can always have in your closet.

But ultimately, like we'd love to follow trends more and kind of have this wider breadth of styles.

But definitely in terms of the actual construction, the seams, the tags, how the elastic waistband is put together, all of that heavily comes from fashion research and other

brands and what they're doing.

Something that lasts, that matters to me.

I've gotten more into the habit of buying things that are more expensive but stand the test of time that last longer.

I don't want to have to buy a pair of jeans or a shirt that I grow wear a year later.

I might pay twice or three quarter, or one and three quarters the price of something now, but I know it'll last me a few years.

We'll have to think about getting rid of it.

And that unfortunately speaks to like when I was in school and didn't have as much personal spending money.

Maybe I'd buy something cheaper and only had to get me through a year or so.

And also Cornell is tough.

You'll chew through it anyway.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, I think that's a big thing just in consumer behavior and fashion education too, just from an environmental standpoint too of kind of teaching consumers that if you pay more

and it lasts longer, you're actually better off in the long run, even though the ticket upfront might seem a little more shocking than something you'd find at Forever 21.

It's something that'll actually be quality and actually last and you know is actually ethically made.

The fact that it also matters, especially for people who are neurodivergent and autistic, because they might possibly be more predisposed to throwing their bodies around a little

bit more, taking one piece of clothing a lot further than somebody else, especially if it's comfortable and they like wearing it.

They might reuse or rewear the same piece of clothing disproportionately more than something else.

And I will also freely admit, I definitely have hoodies and jeans and...

things that I like that, or whether I know it or not, I will definitely wear them more often than not, because I like how they feel or how they fit or something.

I'm curious if any of that thought process goes into how you make and design your clothing too.

Definitely, yeah.

think it's something that I wanted to be aware of, that I didn't want it to be something that after two washes falls apart and then they don't have anymore as a resource.

So making sure to work with the factory on using thick enough, high quality enough materials and strong enough seams, that it isn't something that's going to kind of

disintegrate in the wash like some of those cheaper things we used to buy in college would.

So that was definitely in mind and I definitely hear it from consumers.

I've had someone reach out.

they ended up ordering three hoodies because they needed to always have one in the wash.

She was like, he always wants to wear it.

Even to beds, we have like the bedtime one, the daytime one, and the one in the wash and they cycle.

So I definitely wanted to make sure it was something that that could last many cycles and he can wear for many months despite always wearing.

And that's smart too, like making sure you always have one on hand, whether it's being used now or it's going to be used later.

It's like having one that's ready to go.

And I have my closet full of things.

I get it.

Like it's going to be there and like I have to wait until the dryer is done.

My wife and I are fighting with our dryer.

It doesn't dry.

It's a whole mess.

I used a drying rack for the first time in my life the other day and my wife had to explain to me how to put things on the drying rack.

I'd never used it before.

like maximize the airflow.

me.

Making sure things aren't wrinkled, that was all new to me, because I've always had dryers that generally worked, and now when we're renting a dryer, it doesn't work as well.

So we're just improvising and being flexible with that stuff.

I'm really curious about how you think or why you think your products and your clothes, from Sense-Ational you resonate with both kids and adults.

Something I noticed in the conversation is it's not...

just people who are young, it sounds like it's people who are older too, who are more mature.

How do you think that the breadth of age plays into how universal your products are?

Yeah, I started out as just children's clothing simply because I was teaching and working with three to five year olds were in my classroom.

So it was something that I always knew though, from my research that sensory needs were something that were through your whole lifetime.

I think there's often a misconception with a lot of resources and supports for autism and neurodivergence is that at 18 that all kind of disappears or stops or magically you don't

need those supports anymore.

always knew in my mind that we were going to want to expand it into adult sizes so that everyone could continue to wear them through adulthood.

And social media ended up really confirming that.

Every time we kind of posted about it or video went pretty viral, we were just flooded with comments about the need for adult sizes and how sensory needs don't stop.

And I was like, no, I promise, I know.

Just as soon as we can afford to do larger sizes, we will.

Which was really great to hear.

Also just like having that confirmation that it wasn't just a few people I talked to or researched that

consumers really wanted the products in adult sizes too, which was awesome.

So yeah, we were able to expand to adult sizes.

And I think that's where talking about longevity and making sure it's quality too is something that's super important because adults don't grow out of their sizes as quickly

as kids.

So kids, even if they're really rough on it, I eventually they grow out and need a bigger size, whereas adults can last through their clothing for many years.

So wanting to make sure that that's something that held up on the adult side as well.

That brings up another interesting question because kids are going to grow out of their clothes eventually and if someone is 10 years old, they're not going to fit into the day

where they when they're 15.

How have you thought about upcycling or recycling and reusing those clothes?

Because obviously you probably don't want to get rid of these things outright if you're a parent whose 10 year old kid is now 15.

But has that come up at all as far as being able to take these things back, reuse them or like re-gift them or re-home them?

What does that look like?

if it's even a fight that's happened yet.

Yeah, I haven't really been able to put anything up where there's any sort of formal system yet, though it's been something that's on my mind since launching it and since

fashion school.

And these are conversations we were always having at Cornell.

So as soon as I'm kind of bigger than a one person team, I'd love to kind of enact on some of these ideas.

But I think that's really important that we're building something that will last so it can easily be handed down.

And right now it's pretty much on an individual basis where I talk to customers and

they know that they can pass it down.

So whether that be to their school and pass it down to a classroom, they'll probably know someone that can use it or give it to their therapist to pass down.

This also happened, I've had customers reach out, they've ordered the wrong size and it doesn't quite make sense to send it back.

So I'll work with them to find a therapist in the area or another family friend they know that could pass it down and give it to someone.

And then I'm able to give them the large, like mail them out a larger size.

And that hoodie still goes to use and goes to someone that can use it.

So that's been really cool.

But ultimately, as we talked about, like building the community and building a formal system around that, I think would be really awesome.

Even if it's between parents in this community group of who needs a size small, I have a used one, that'd be awesome.

Or being able to offer that in a more formal way on our website of being able to buy a discounted used hoodie on

And I've seen those with the thing before where like, I don't want to call it a clearance rack.

think that kind of devalues what you're trying to bring for people.

But for folks who maybe want to buy something at a cheaper price or just to kind of see what it's like before they commit to buying two or three of those for their kids is

certainly an interesting entry point as far as what's on their mind.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, if there was an easy way to kind of get that system up and running, I would do it tomorrow.

I think it takes a lot of kind of back end and team and support and making sure that the things are still a high enough quality to send to someone that it'll still continue to

last for them.

So I think there's a lot there.

So that's why it's done kind of informally right now, but super exciting about opportunities for that in the future.

Speaking of, what are the biggest priorities that you do see for Sense-Ational you in the next few years?

What's really in front of you as the biggest challenges that you want to tackle?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is we kind of touched on earlier about how everyone's sensory needs are different.

I think the biggest thing for kind of the next year is going to be to be kind of expanding the offerings as much as possible to be able to meet some of those.

I never want it to feel like stagnant, like this is all we're ever going to create and these are kind of the limited options.

So the goal is to be able to figure out the best way to kind of scale and offer new fabric or a new version of it, maybe with a zipper instead of magnets and

just meet kind some of those individual needs that have come up a lot and be able to offer new colors and exciting new prints and things like that that kind of keep consumers

excited about it and meet a lot more of those needs.

know for a lot of especially autistic children, some of them will be very specific about the color they have to wear.

So if customers reach out, I would love to buy this, but my daughter will only wear pink.

It has to be all pink or there's some will only wear red.

So wanting to be able to offer more of those colors too, to kind of help.

those parents who were struggling with their kids being very specific in the morning heading off to school.

was also really curious, you mentioned an interesting point there.

For folks who buy your products, for folks who buy from Sense-Ational U, how often is it the parent who reaches out versus the autistic person themselves?

I imagine that varies greatly based on if they're buying for kids versus for adults, what's the split between parents on behalf of kids versus people buying it for themselves?

say in terms of people at least who are reaching out so that's the people I'm actually interacting with and not people just submit an order online and don't reach out is mainly

parents.

And I think part of that is that they have a lot more questions and want to make sure it's right for their child and is the right size versus I'm sure adults who are shopping for

themselves kind of can do that a little more seamlessly and don't feel the need to reach out or follow up as much.

I also think as you mentioned like sometimes parents feel very isolated and alone so they'll even email back.

and they kind of provide those stories like being able to eat in the cafeteria and kind of some of those wins just to have that connection which I love but I think that's definitely

much more of a parent thing who's kind of seeking this resource and wants to connect and have that community so I'd definitely say parents but it might not be because that's the

majority of who's buying even for the adult sizes it's just who's connecting and reaching out.

It's who you hear from as who is in front of you in your email box, inbox, and stuff like that.

That makes a ton of sense.

Julia, if people want to learn more about Sense-Ational U, find you on the web, buy a hoodie or two or five, where can they find you?

Yeah, so you can go to sensoryclothes.com and then everything's linked in our social media that's always at Sense-Ational underscore you since such Sense-Ational being a little bit

of a play on words.

So S E N S E national you and yeah, we're on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, all the things.

So you can pretty much find us anywhere and all the chat boxes, DMs, my emails everywhere.

I answer all of that.

So feel free to reach out wherever with questions or just to send a message.

love it.

I will make sure that I link everything about that in the show notes, so if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast, platform of My Choice, you'll have links to

those from wherever you're listening to.

Julia, this was an awesome conversation.

Best of luck with Sense-Ational you.

And as we mentioned on our first call, I'm definitely gonna into buying a hoodie or a shirt for myself, at least just so I can have it, because that's definitely something that

I want, because I'm flying in a few weeks, and maybe I'll want it for the airport.

Yeah, I can't wait to hear what you think.

I fly in mine all the time.

I'll absolutely look at it.

Julia, thanks so much.

Awesome, thank you.