Setting Boundaries and Discovering Your Autistic Self with Cat Contillo

Welcome to the Autistic Techie podcast.

I'm your host, Shea Belsky, an autistic software engineer and tech lead.

We're going to dive into the world of tech careers from a neurodivergent perspective, interviewing guests from all different corners of the industry and empowering you to be a

better self advocate.

Welcome back to the Autistic Techie podcast.

On today's episode, I am thrilled to be joined by Cat Contillo, a cybersecurity expert, autistic self-advocate, and multidisciplinary artist.

She's an accessibility and inclusive design advocate, passionate about making technology, design, and content more usable for everyone.

As a neurodivergent and disabled artist and educator, Cat emphasizes creativity, accessibility, and digital inclusion to ensure people feel seen, valued, and empowered.

Cat.

Welcome to Autistic Techie.

Thank you for having me.

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to be such a multidisciplinary artist and cyber expert?

My name is Cat Contillo I'm married.

I'm a cat guardian of two fur babies.

Grew up in New Jersey, but currently living in New York State with my wife.

I kind of was like a jack of all trades, per se, and I guess it still continues to carry to this day.

I really like to delve into learning about everything and anything possible that I can.

Of course there's some things that are not of an interest to me, but overall, anything that I can grasp I will.

I'm a visual thinker, so anything that goes into play with like creating, design, anything I can create in my mind, if I can see it, I can do it sort of ordeal.

I was an INFJ and now I'm an INFP for anybody who enjoys personality quizzes.

I'm an introvert, but I also love to talk and advocate and empower people.

I entered in the cybersecurity industry about five years ago and I was in it for almost about five years.

But now I'm currently a career changer, but I'm still very passionate about accessibility in cybersecurity.

And I guess the last thing I'll say about me is that...

It's just a fun random fact, but I will tip waitstaff double the tip if they give me more than one cherry in a Shirley Temple.

That's a really specific thing.

I love that.

It's very specific, but I'm sure those waitresses know that you're going to double that tip.

Just give her the second cherry.

Exactly.

I always say, like, please, just more than one cherry.

I like to have at least two.

And sometimes when they've picked up on it, they'll, they'll give me like three or four.

And I was like, I don't need three or four cherries.

Just two is fine.

But thank you.

Will you still double the tidbit to give you more than double, or only if it's exactly double?

no, if they at least give me more than one, I will double the tip no matter what.

Yeah.

no such thing in "it's too many cherries for the tip." Okay.

How did you get involved in cybersecurity and what drew you to that space?

Yeah, that's a really good question.

So I originally went to school for an associate's degree in social work.

And I did an internship.

with autistic kids and adults and teens and it was really, really great overall.

But I was like, I love helping people, but this isn't the type of help I really wanted to do.

So I was like, let me go for my bachelor's degree.

And at the time I was going for psychology and I was like, still, this isn't like the realm of helping or doing that I want to be a part of.

exactly.

Yeah, no vibes.

I was just like, I can't do this.

isn't for me.

So I got recommended while I was working with seniors, I was teaching them technology, helping them with any cyber scams that they were dealing with, and fixing their technology

cheaper or free than the people like down in their town were like scamming them, making them pay like hundreds of thousands of dollars to get things fixed.

And I was like, I got you.

And they were like, hey, you're really good with technology.

You should do something in that field.

Since they knew I was questioning all of my life, I was like, what am I going to go to school for?

So I found Utica College online.

And I saw that they had like cybersecurity, criminal justice, all these different things.

And so I went there and I did about about a year and a half

worth of courses and I graduated with a bachelor's in criminal justice with a concentration in cyber criminology and policy with a minor in cyber security.

And I had no idea what I was going to do when I graduated.

just, again, really enjoyed learning.

And I met somebody at Utica who also was doing online schools and we had a couple of different courses exactly the same.

And she was working at a place and

she said, you should join me.

I think you would be really great at this job.

And I was like,

Yeah, sure.

And I was really nervous because it was my first.

Right, exactly.

It was my first job ever.

So kind of within the realm of autistic people and sometimes being unemployed and there's a high number of us.

I was terrified and I was like, you know what, let me just do it.

I applied for it.

I did the 90 day internship and then they hired me full time.

So that's how I got involved in cybersecurity.

And then

To point out real quick, what drew me to the space other than the seniors that I was working with suggesting I do something in technology, I always go back to Criminal Minds

and watching that actress working with the computers and I thought, my goodness, I want to do that.

I always see it a lot on TV shows too, where there's like the one person behind the computer who is like the computer expert, whether it's cyber security stuff, whether

they're hacked into the cameras, they're watching through everywhere.

I feel like a very like Oracle from DC Comics moment where you want to be Oracle.

You're everywhere.

When did you start thinking about neurodiversity as it pertained to your work and to your job?

Because you're a very strong advocate for it now.

Have you always known that you're neurodivergent?

Did that come later?

When did that start to enter into the mix?

I guess I should just go back a couple years, even though I feel like I'm going to say a couple years, but I mean like a decade or two ago.

But when I was seven, I was diagnosed with a whole bunch of learning disabilities, a whole bunch of developmental disabilities and stuff like that.

I didn't speak until I was five, but they didn't know I was autistic then.

I think that

they might have been a little confused because I had all the telltale signs and but again, didn't get diagnosed with autism even at seven but that helped me go into like special

education and be able to be taught the way that I needed.

When I was in high school, after bullying, all the years of bullying and that experience, I was like, what is wrong with me?

Like, what is seriously wrong with me?

Like, why should I be here anymore?

Because I don't even understand myself.

Like, my learning disabilities didn't explain what autism eventually explained to me.

And so senior year of high school, I barely was there and I was getting help.

trying to figure out what was going on.

And I found another psych psychiatrist.

She's autistic and her son is autistic.

And the first thing she said to me when I walked in, she was like, but even before testing, she was like, I think you're autistic.

And I was like, what?

I've never heard of that before.

And I read into it.

I researched it.

She did the testing.

I'm autistic and at the time it was called Asperger's, but we know that that is not a thing anymore.

So I'm proudly autistic and it was life changing.

It was like day and night.

I was like, I have a reason to be here.

I have a reason to be alive.

And if it wasn't that diagnosis that gave me the answers as to like why I didn't get the joke and why people always made fun of me because of that.

And

Yeah, so I found out when I was 18 about it and then I've been very passionate about it.

I do a lot of like painting and art and like autism and art contests.

So that has been a lot.

I write about it.

But when I got into the job that I had, I was like, wait a second.

There isn't really much talking about this.

Like, let me talk about it.

Let me introduce people to the world.

Like, maybe people are afraid, and I'm not afraid to stand out and say, hey, I'm autistic.

Do you have any questions?

Do you want to ask about them and help educate people?

that's kind of, I found my voice in my job at that time.

So yeah.

My original diagnosis was also Asperger's and you said a couple things that stood out to me.

You said you were originally diagnosed with a couple different learning disabilities, but that didn't know that you were autistic until much later.

And unfortunately, from women who I know who are also autistic, most, didn't get diagnosed until later in life, where they're teens or they were a young adult.

How do you think that not having an early diagnosis affected you?

that's a good question.

I think it affected me a whole lot.

When anything happens to me, say like bullying at a young age,

I always think about, okay, I know these things about myself and I know that like one of the diagnoses was auditory processing disorder.

I know that I'm barely going to grasp straws at what is being said in the class.

So I always had a note taker and like a person who sat there and took notes for me.

But like, those are things I understood.

Like, hey, I might ask you again for what you said the first time because I didn't hear you.

I only heard parts of it.

And so I could be like, hold myself kind of proud.

Like, even if I had some flaws or whatever and people like wanted to poke fun or whatever, it didn't matter because at my core, I was like, this is who I am.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

I'll find my people.

I'll find my crew that also get it.

I really think that

If I was diagnosed earlier, one, I would have had a full sense of self, at least a better sense of self.

Maybe I could have learned more about who I was and understood at an earlier age and that could have really made an impact.

I don't think I would have been as depressed and not wanting to really be here anymore.

And I think the third thing I'll say, if I was diagnosed earlier,

Maybe I would have been able to figure out what I wanted to do with my life earlier on because I was told like in high school by teachers and counselors, don't worry about the

SATs, you're never gonna go to college.

You're just gonna work in a warehouse because...

thing to say.

It is absolutely horrible, but I heard it all the time.

They told me not to take any like special tests for school.

They told me, you know, you're not doing really well here at school, so it's not like you're going to go on to anything else.

And I really wish, yeah, I really wish that people in high school understood that like high school is not the definition of anybody.

Like anything could happen.

I now have two college degrees.

So like, exactly.

Yeah.

When you did get into the workforce and when you graduated with your two degrees and when you got a full-time job, you started to talk about your advocacy about neurodiversity and

what you started to talk about what form that took.

Can you go into little more detail about what that advocacy actually looked like and how it helped you and how it helped others?

So I didn't get really out there on like LinkedIn and really speaking like public speaking about being neurodivergent or specifically being autistic until about 2021, 22.

It was around that time.

And

I had spoken at my job at the time and we did summits.

Every two years you do a summit, you can either go in person or at the time with COVID, I had to do it remotely.

But even before the remote options, had, you know, I said to people like, hey, I'm autistic.

I might be a little socially awkward and sometimes I might not get anything that you just said to me, but it's because I'm autistic and it wasn't, it wasn't like, I was sitting

here trying to show blame or make an excuse or something like some people might think, but

I was just trying to open up a space for people to ask questions, even the hard questions.

Maybe it sounds like an ignorant question, which is okay, but I wanted to create that space so that they felt comfortable to ask me so that we could like, kind of just like

wipe the slate clean sort of ordeal.

And I had a little anxiety attack, sort of a panic attack before I did it.

But afterwards, I felt really great.

People felt informed, understood a little bit more, not even just for myself, but even people in their family.

And I realized, wow, I really like this.

I like being able to help people understand, but also maybe even empower somebody else to be able to stand up for themselves and speak out about certain things.

So then I started.

Yeah.

wait, no, I interrupted you, I'm sorry.

No, it's okay, go ahead.

Now, I thought you were done talking.

Keep going, I'm gonna cut this part out.

All right.

I was just gonna say when I started writing about it on LinkedIn, other companies started to reach out to me about

speaking at their companies about autism, about neurodiversity, and I realized that the way I can articulate things was really helpful for even people that weren't autistic and

neurodivergent or maybe family members.

And I started to really love that because I just love helping people.

it is that feeling of helping other people feel more whole and bringing to them that epiphany, that feeling that you had when you were diagnosed as being autistic and you said

earlier, wow, this makes sense.

Wow, I have clarity.

I have closure.

This is filling in the blanks that I have experienced for the past 17, 18 years of my life.

And I'm sure that that was a powerful feeling to

Spread that and express that the same to other people at your company and at your workplace and then to other companies when they wanted to invite you in.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, it felt good.

And

It really doesn't matter who the person is.

If I can help somebody, whether you are autistic and maybe you need some assistance in figuring out, I don't know, I've helped people with figuring out work accommodations,

figuring out yourself, being able to be even proud of just being who you are instead of seeing it as a flaw.

I'm happy to do that in any way, or form that I can.

What advice do you have to people who are trying to manage that level of self-advocacy?

Because I think it's a really important subject to be able to advocate for yourself, and it is absolutely something that many neurodivergent people struggle with.

What is your advice to people who are trying to figure out how to advocate for themselves and communicate more clearly what their needs are?

Knowing who you are, like knowing your flaws, knowing your strengths, equally important.

But knowing that even though they are your...

part of who you are, make everybody's different, right?

Everybody who's autistic is different, everyone who's neurodivergent, no matter whatever the categories underneath the, or the diagnosis is underneath the umbrella is, everybody's

different, but your experience is still really, really important.

And if you think about going out in the world and being able to stand up for yourself,

you're not only doing that for yourself, but you're also making a wave in for other people.

That's one thing I always try to think about.

I don't want to ever think about it like as a selfish thing, but it also selfless because it's helping other people.

I hope that makes sense.

But,

Speaking out about yourself, you're going to get the things that you need and the things that allow you to be yourself.

You're bringing yourself to wherever you are.

Work.

at home, you're requesting these needs and they are valid, whatever they are, they are valid, pertaining to work, it has to be more reasonable accommodations, but still I have

never heard of an unreasonable accommodation.

I think the, the terminology is very silly, but,

Whatever can bring you your best self to doing whatever you can do, I think that you should request it.

One of the other things I like to bring into being a self advocate to some sorts is boundaries.

We can often push ourselves too far.

We want to help.

We want to help.

We want to help ourselves.

We want to push, push, push.

people don't understand.

Let me help them understand.

I understand that as well.

I just, I just want to like kind of grasp it as, as well as I can and, and get people to kind of understand.

But I have to also realize that I have boundaries and I have to create boundaries for myself so that when I, you know, the next day I have the energy to still help myself at

home.

I can be there for my wife, you

I could take care of the cats, but if I do too much, I won't be able to continue to do it.

think you had a lot of really important points about the balance of being selfish and self-less and also setting boundaries.

I have definitely struggled with advocating for myself and communicating, not in a way that is selfish or comes off as being imposing, but to make sure that I'm taking care of

myself and trying to create the environment, trying to make the adjustments that I need in my surroundings to be successful.

One way that that shows up for me is...

I wear big headphones, people know that I'm kind of zoning out and focusing in, and if people don't like that, well, that's up to them.

If you need to get in touch with me, send me a Slack, me a Teams, email, whatever.

There's lots of ways to get in touch with me in a digital age, and I work from home a couple days a week too, so I'm not expecting anybody to pop out from behind this divider

and ask me of anything except my wife and my two cats, and that's about it.

And you talk as well about setting boundaries, which I think is another really important thing.

What are some examples of

setting boundaries that has worked for you, whether it is in your personal life or in the workplace.

Yes, no, this is really good.

I was in a part of my life where I would do too much and then I wouldn't be able to do anything at all.

I'd lay in bed the next day with like no energy to do anything.

So I had to kind of learn boundaries.

And what I've noticed that really helps me specifically is I have a couple of hours in a day where I'll be like, hey, I'm really, I'm open 12 PM to 4 PM.

for example, whatever like a meeting, whatever it is, if I have to go speak or something like that, I make that sort of boundary of those specific hours.

Even though I'm available earlier on, I just know that maybe that's not...

in my energy, like sort of working hours, I'm not going to be very good maybe if it's like eight o'clock in the morning, even though I'm free, I give them the specific hours that I

would be best at bringing myself there, being my best self.

And the other boundaries I like to say is if somebody asked me for a meeting or asked me for speaking engagements, especially speaking engagements, I like to ask for specifics.

I'm not asking for details.

I'm not asking for everything written at hand.

I want to understand what is it that you really want me to come to your speaking engagement for?

What is it that you're looking for?

How do you want your, the people there to receive me?

Because the best way for me to put my words together and say them correctly at this speaking engagement is to be prepared for that.

Same with meetings.

I like an agenda.

Give me an idea of what we're going to be talking about.

and I need that.

If that person doesn't give me that, then I'm not doing the meeting.

I will cancel the meeting and I'll just be like, this is what I need.

Same thing with interviews.

I have learned that...

in my time, and I've also spoken to other people who are afraid to ask for accommodations or some sort of accessible aspect.

And I'm not going to be working for a company who can't give me even the base minimum, say closed captions.

What if you can give me an idea of like, if this is like the second interview, what are we speaking on?

Like, what are you talking to me about?

What do you need me to be prepared for?

I need to be prepared.

And so I might be

kind of like an anomaly per se but if if that company can't meet me or that person can't meet me there then I don't want to meet them either it's got to be a two-way street and so

my boundary is that I know what I need and I will ask for it and if somebody won't give it to me then I'm not gonna put myself out there if that makes sense

That makes a ton of sense.

I absolutely think that it would be ironic of a company to invite you to a subject about neurodiversity, about inclusion and belonging, and not meet your needs as a self-advocate

of what is going on.

And I have heard of people who have been invited to come speak at big conferences.

There was a post by Ellie Middleton on LinkedIn who was invited to do a big presentation, but they would not meet her accommodation needs.

I forget what it was, but I think that she had

an aide or a partner or some other sort of support professional to help her during the day and they wouldn't let her bring this professional in and then she couldn't give a talk

because of that which is a terrible thing and it's ironic in the sense that you want to bring somebody in to speak about belonging and yet you won't let this person belong in

this space just because they have a need or a boundary in this case that has to be fulfilled which is a

It's a frustrating thing to witness, but it's another thing entirely when it happens to you.

Yes.

Yeah.

Oof.

I've heard of this happen a lot of times.

I haven't experienced that.

Like, bad.

That's just horrible.

I feel really bad for that person.

But...

That's where you would draw the line.

You're like, hey, you can't allow this person, a caretaker, somebody to help you to be able to bring yourself to this talk.

Nah.

You can keep the talk because obviously you don't understand belonging, that's for sure.

I where this also comes down to is like when neurodiversity is discussed as part of this picture and people don't necessarily understand the why.

Why do you need this accommodation?

What is this for?

I think there's always this feeling that it has to be justified.

There has to be a reason for it.

And you have to explain yourself.

Why do you need a professional?

Why do you need captions?

Why do you need an agenda?

I always, I've experienced that.

I've experienced the why, why I need certain things.

And I feel like I've broken record having to justify myself over and over and over.

I'm not sure if you've experienced that at all, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on when people push back against what you're asking for, if that has happened to you.

Yeah.

yes, it has happened to me.

It is very frustrating because I think that it- whether you're neurodivergent, whether you're a pregnant person about to have a baby, whether you're an old person or a young

person who uses a mobility aid, whatever that need is, is something that you need.

I don't really think that

explaining it even helps to an extent.

I think that they just want to know why to justify why you can't have it.

In my experience, I've been asked, what did I ask for?

I need to rest breaks.

Just a little break to just kind of re...

figure myself out to breathe to come back to the space.

Yes, recalibrate.

I like that word.

And I needed that.

Yeah, I'm going to steal it.

So I needed that.

it was just, why?

Why do you need it?

What do mean why?

Like in reality, it doesn't even matter who it is.

I just need to breathe.

Like I just need a little break, maybe like a walk around the apartment and come back and

I've asked for other things as well for different types of events and stuff.

And it's always like, sorry, we can't provide that for you, because then we would have to do it for other people.

That's the line I dislike the most.

Because you should technically, if there was a need for somebody else who also needed this, this accommodation, this

accessibility feature, then they should be able to have it.

That's where like meeting halfway to things is like valid.

But the why

and demanding the why is the kind of their way of then throwing it back in our faces saying like, well, then you can't do that because then everybody else or you can't do that

because whatever it might be.

I just wish that empathy and understanding was met not a why not a question, unless it's truly to understand.

But even then, we shouldn't have to explain every single thing that we need that could help us without them

at least just understanding that it'll allow us to bring our best selves to whatever we're doing.

Why is it so terrible if everybody else gets access to an option to an adjustment to an accommodation?

Like, why is that so terrible?

that's a good question.

I would love to know that answer.

it, I think that people are just so fixated in one way.

And I, and I get, I get it to an extent.

But also, it's, oh, it's like culture fit versus culture add, which is the, the most frustrating thing I've ever experienced.

Yeah, it is, it is, I think it's pretty accurate because culture fit is where

you invite people to come into the space that is created in a specific way with these specific type of people like a type A person like that's who you want to add to this group

and if you're type B or type C or maybe you're not even a type

alphabet, and you want to come to this company, they're like, No, you have to be the certain way.

So unless you can change, we don't want you here.

And unless you you only be the certain way, we don't want you here.

Culture ad is you're adding people who are different from all works of life, all all over the place, like, whatever you're bringing that person and what they bring to you.

And that's really what's going to make a great company.

And I feel like that's the type of company that wouldn't be

asking you why.

want to keep that positivity train going and end on a stronger note.

When it comes to companies that can really do more and when it comes to organizations becoming more inclusive, what's number one advice you would give to them to help them

become more inclusive for neurodivergent people?

divergent people and being more inclusive, I would say...

Be open minded, be empathetic, not sympathetic, empathetic.

Understanding and understand that whether they are neurodivergent, whether it is a chronic illness, whether it's a disability, all things included, you want to meet people where

they are at so they can bring

like they're 100 % to whatever they're doing.

So as a company, you want innovation, you want new works and people that are...

hitting the ground running basically, you want that at your company, because then your company is going to grow and your company is going to raise money and all those things.

If you meet people, neurodivergent people at where they are, helping them continue to do that.

That's, that's really just going to help your company.

I don't I don't know what else I could say on that other than the last thing I'll say is that

We are already, and I'm speaking as neurodivergent, we are already giving 120 % of whatever we do, especially if we're interested in wherever we're going and whatever we're

doing.

We're giving 120%.

You can at least meet us a little bit to continue to be that 120 % because we're giving our all and that...

to in my experience, I'm giving way more than even the average person.

yeah, open-minded empathy and understanding, I think, will really go a long way.

Empathy and understanding.

love all of that and I completely agree with it.

Cat, if people want to keep listening to your talk and they want to help themselves be better advocates, where can they find you on the web?

yeah.

well, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn, Cat, Contillo I am also on threads, Facebook, and Instagram.

My professional one is empowered, chronically, co, C-O.

You can find me on all of that.

And then I currently am working on a website, but it will be, or it is catcontillo.com.

I'll make sure that all is in the show notes and I'll make sure that that's out in all the podcast platforms.

Cat, it great to talk to you today.

Thanks so much for coming on the show.

was wonderful to have you.

Thank you so much for having me.